Rick,

They are. Colts with Bar Sto barrels in the 5” persuasion with small carry comps. Essentially shooting .451 Detonics (185 gr Sierra match at 1450 fps.) that shoots flatter than .22 lr. at 100 yds. 200 gr. LSWC at 900 fps or so is a good training round (much easier on the wallet).

I have come to terms that using a firearm in a non-official capacity I will loose it at least temporarily. I have also come to terms that the percentage dollar cost is small compared to the probable legal cost of even the most justified shooting. I have decided that the life of my loved ones should not be decided over a delta of a grand or two. I will spend the money.

I know quite a few folks who can engage at 100 yards, though a handgun is definitely not the preferred weapon. Usual choices are 1911s, Sigs, a couple of Glocks, and one Bren Ten.

As for the house it starts with a handgun on the nightstand but I will grab a FAL carbine.

John,

There are some full sized aluminum frame 1911s out there. Check out the delta in height and length between even a government and your 2”. I find 2” snubs very hard to shoot decently.

S/F, FOG

Fog, you sure it is 100 yards and not 100 ft? I think the Marine Qualification only goes up to 25 yards and neither the target nor the shooter is moving.

After just reading about this story and seeing this thread, I think there is a LOT of BS testosterone being thrown around here.

The answer is you will NEVER know until it happens to you; the flight or fight instinct will decide what you do, along with all the other factors, where you are, who you are with (if anyone), etc.

It's a very sad case, and my prayers are with the families of victims

Alf,

Quite sure. The official ranges for annual pistol qual are 7, 15 and 25 yards using 25 yard standard American target pasted onto torso silhouettes. The targets turn as their only movement if the range allows it.

I am quite sure that the target was at 100 surveyed yards. I have one of them in my office as we speak, it a low expert but expert non the less.

S/F, FOG

you go, Chuck!

Right on, Bob. That's what I was trying to get at. We all think we would rush in to save the day, but I'm sure the reality is quite different. A man armed with a rifle is a pretty formidable foe, assuming he can use it. Engaging him with a typical concealed carry sidearm would be quite a feat. The only thing you would have going for you is the element of surprise. Better make that first on count; after that he has a huge advantage.

It seems some of you are more than a little underwhelmed with the potential effectiveness of a sidearm. I hunt with one regularly; usually a 4 5/8" Blackhawk in .45 Colt. Sometimes a fixed-sight 4 1/2" Peacemaker in the same caliber, sometimes a 6" Virginian Dragoon in .44 mag. I have taken deer-sized game with all of them. I took a pretty darn nice pronghorn at just about 120 yards one day, with the Peacemaker, shooting black powder loads. These things can be way more effective at "long" (for a handgun) range than many of you might guess. My 2 1/2" Charter Bulldog in .44 Special will stay on a gallon milk jug all day long at 100 yards, as will my mil-spec Springfield 1911. All it takes is practice (and a lot of it). I would hope anyone with a CCW would endeavor to become proficient and comfortable with their carry gun. Almost staying on a man-size silhouette at 10 feet ain't "proficienct", kids. I see too many at the local indoor range that seem to think that's pretty good.

+1
IME,
High-reliability in a 1911 and 100 yard accuracy are mutually exclusive, short of full race guns.

Dhoward,

I gotta disagree. I have no full race guns unless you want to call my CCW handguns full race (maybe 25 years ago). They are reliable enough that I would trust them to go to war with. Brush up on practice and from a rest (sitting or prone) I can hit torso silhouettes at 200 yards, though that would be tactical either desperation or to distract only to engage at that range.

S/F, FOG

Sure, given enough time and a rest, I could lob one out 200yds too. (And I DO mean lob).
My point was, it's a pretty tight lockup to produce that sort of consistant accuracy. Without more work, it's hard to keep fed and cleared reliably.
Standard-issue handguns aren't accurized for a reason.
Well, several really.
JMO

Dhoward,

Out at 200 yards for most semi-auto round it is lob, never said it isn’t.

Are we talking standard issue handguns to what range. Most M9s and Sigs will reliable hit targets at 100 yards, I’ll bet the same of H&Ks + Glocks (though not a lot of money on Glocks), the issue 1911s in the military will do so.

S/F, FOG

Geeze, you must have no neighbors for miles, walls of .5" steel and no kids in the house. Rifles don't belong in the house for home defense unless it's for perimeter or outdoor stuff. I was shooting an M4 a few weeks ago at steel fenceposts, probably at about 75 yds. I was cutting through them like a hot knife through soft butter. If a .223 does that, I can't imagine what the adult calibers can do.

Anyway, I like high quality sidearms and feel a moral obligation to be as proficient as possible with whatever I carry. And that's partly why my 1911's stay home. I can shoot all my SIG's far better than I can my 1911's. As tricked out as some of my SIG's are, they are all easily replaceable too.

Don't be such a puzzy. Gotta defend the casa. Neighbors are just collateral damage.

K.
Semantics.
Targets
Anything is capable of hitting something @100yds.
You win.

Mall was a "Gun Free Zone" even though Nebraska is a very CCW state. There were signs outside the mall indicating no guns. How's that for an invitation to a deranged shooter/murderer???

Invitation? The sign said NO guns! That guy totally disregarded the signs, unbelievable!

I also disregard such signs. If they see I'm armed and ask me to leave, I'm happy to take my business elsewhere and leave them at the mercy of 911.

Rick,

I do live alone on some acreage, neighbors are not a concern. When my son visits or others I have precautions. As for over penetration on .223/5.56 compared to most pistol calibers try a little test. Build yourself a “wall” using drywall with insulation in between to your house standards. Place some ¾” plywood 3-5’ behind it and shoot it with your M4 copy and handguns. Check which has lethal/damaging fragments hitting/penetrating the plywood behind.

Disadvantage to rifles is muzzle blast w/o hearing protection. Being off axis but down range of a .308 muzzle blast is disorientating, it’s been called a semi-auto stun grenade.

I also have layers of different motion/intruder protection. I know when people come on the property and move outside. Even surprised a few high school kids who thought they were parking in secret on my property.

S/F, FOG

Cool, now i have something to work towards

My Mossberg Mariner in 12 ga. is my preferred home defense piece, though I do keep a SIG P220 in the night table too.

I'M 100% PRO GUN CONTROL! - Which is to say that them who is totin' should control their use of their gun by exhibiting calmness and intelligence, having given a lot of reasonable forethought regarding possible scenarios within which they might, unfortunately, find themselves.

Well put Gogar.

Well then, you are just as bad as the mall guy in this case.*




*Other than not going on a murderous rampage.

Rick,

One last thought on using a long gun for home protection. If you are going to do a search you of the residence with a long gun you should have some decent training in weapons retention, even more so than with a handgun.

Alf,

Start at close range, say five yards, and shoot a group. Slowly move the target back in small increments, don’t do from 5/7 yards to 25 then 50 then 100 as it will probably demoralize you. Don’t let the 100 yards get in your head. Good sight picture/sight alignment with sight alignment being by far the most important. You need good ammunition and a handgun capable of it, some aren’t up to the task and accuracy is not a linear function of range look at a number of Hi-Powers (I’ve seen them where 15-20 yards ¾-1” open to 4-5 at 25 and not being able to place all the rounds on a target at 50).

S/F, FOG

In VA open carry is legal. It will attract police attention and harassment. But it's legal. So if I bend down to pick something up and a pistol grip stcks out fron under my shirt and distracts some MILF from her cell phone conversation enough to tell the store mgt., I might get a talking to, but I have broken no law. The no guns signs do not have the force of law here in VA. I believe they do in OH. But in OH, if a business has a no guns sign, that business is legally liable for your personal safety, IIRC.

I carry one of three guns.

A Stainless Springfield 1911 Full size (5") - weight about 36 oz
A Stainless/Alloy Colt Defender (3" with shortened grip) - weight about 24 oz
Or a Keltec P3-AT - weight about 8 oz

all we had to do here in snobbsdale(it truly was a juan horsey town) growing up was ride mini bikes/dirty bikes, go 4 wheeling, ride dumbass horses, go to lake river, hunting fishing. and with each of those a gun or guns was always with us.

this crap you dont know what your gonna do until it happens IS CRAP!

i have shot enough long range rifle matches iron sighted to be damn proficient w/out a scope at a 1000 yds!

i have shot enough pistols in my life, to know i can bean the hell out of milk jugs at 100 yds and keep making them dance until i reload or run out. .45,9mm,.22, .44 mag.

i know exactly what im gonna do.............IM GOING TO VERIFY TARGET AND SHOOT THE LIVING HELL OUT OF IT IF IT CONTINUES SHOOTING!

no ifs and or butts about it. it will be just as i said, shove girlfriend to cover, pull weapon rack round safety off, verify target and NAIL EM!

there are FOUR (4) dumbass jack daniels drunk TEXANS that shot at me one year hunting north of chromo, colorado/new mex. state line still alive because i used restraint and didnt plug the (4) shooting in my direction w/win mags.

rounds went off over my head(know that sound REAL WELL from pulling targets at 1000 yd matches) and buried my body into dirt. low crawled to vantage point glassed them with scope and rolled back into cover. made my decision to light off 5 rds rapid fire and if they continued they were dead MEAT!

lit off 5 rds into ute rezervation fenceline and proceeded to glass again. whiskey bottle and the rifles all went into back of truck and they hauled ass off. collected my wits and walked back into my camp. my camp was where these idiots stopped and dropped tailgate. bright yellow north face antarctic hotel, 94 blue Z71 truck sitting less than 25 yds from them.they knew someone was out there!

there is NO SCREWING AROUND WHEN IT COMES TO FIREARMS! and yes chastise me for hunting with my HK-91 w/5rd legal in colorado clips. it was wet snowing and i didnt feel like getting my McMillian M40-A1 muddy! either rifle they were dead if they continued! i have owned my HK-91 since i was around 21 years old. my M40-A1 since i was like 23.

ALL of my CCW instructors have asked me over the years "where'd you learn how to shoot? the military?" " nope..........its jes somethang we did alot of growing up"! and i mean we did alot of it. kind of like riding a bike. you never forget!

bottomline to the above story..........the texans rounds put me down for cover. same as in the mall. suppressing fire may have bought more time. cops showed in 6 minutes. maybe someone could have been saved, if he couldnt get more shots off while being pinned down.

im not trying or have any desire to be a hero. im not taking anyones crap when it comes to firearms. i have seen the damage first hand and i dont like it one bit. i have also seen and heard lousy cop response times. they cant be everywhere when you need them. soooooooooo..........in response i carry concealed.........ALWAYS!

call me paronoid, call me scared, call me a puzzy. call me anything you want. but when the crap goes down.............i know EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE TO DO, IN THE EXACT ORDER, AT THE EXACT TIME, AND HIT MY TARGET! each and every damn time until the threat is gone.

man looking back i have had my CCW around 20 years now. thats alot of playing with the knife welding attacker advancing on you live fire excercises!

and the best part...............none of my pistols are race guns. hks(yep several) have never been altered,no need..45's/.44 just nelson ford tuned/ramped/night sites. nothing special. same federal .45cal, 230gr jacketed hollow point all the local cops carry.

im not bragging about my shooting..............because ACCURACY SPEAKS! and practice makes perfect! practice practice practice!

and learn how to reload quickly!

Ummmmmm....are we going to see your picture on CNN one day? On of those 'quiet' guys that just happens to have 30 bodies in shallow graves on his property?

"He was a kinda quiet guy, kept to himself . . . "

Hardrive,

Nope, too lazy. If they need killing there’s no need hiding the fact.

If somebody is visiting unexpected then I greet them outside. If someone comes on the property I also meet them on my terms. Gives me the advantages and thus reduces the chance of actual violence. Scum bags generally look for soft targets, getting confronted while in a disadvantageous position unexpectedly has a tendency to unnerve most people.

The school kids thought they could park in a depression on my property unnoticed. Getting a knock on their window a few minutes after parking startled them quite a bit, they were most grateful to be allowed to leave without any reports or more drama of any kind.

Personally I much prefer to enjoy a good cigar, good Scotch and a good woman than deal with scum bags. I’m not a cop and thus don’t go looking for scum bags, at least in the U.S., while good cigars, Single malt, or a good woman is something I don’t mind spending time in locating and enjoyed.

S/F, FOG

I wasn't going to get into this thread, but I think you should speak a tad more respectfully to a member of the United States Armed Forces. That comment is quite out of line. So what, he doesn't want to live in the city, as you presumably do? That means you get to question as to whether or not he's a serial killer?

Before you defend your position, saying you were merely joking, consider that a joke has to be FUNNY for it to be a joke, and what you said was not. You should be ashamed, but I have a feelings you won't be.

To stay on topic...I hope I would do whatever is right for the situation. If it really came down to it and the crap was hitting the fan, I hope I would do whatever I could to neutralize the threat to myself and other. Who can say for sure, though? This thread kind of my made me think of the Professor at VA Tech who survived the Holocaust, only to be gunned down by some loser. Held the door shut to save to save his students. The mind boogoles....boogles, however you spell it...

well heres the latest crap from the radio. he used an AK-47 assault rifle! that he stole from his dad. first off i highly doubt it was an AK-47. more than likely a semi-auto MAK-90.

now why in hell does his dad not own a gun safe?????seems to me if a kid has been diagnosed with mental problems any weapon including the kitchen knife set should be under lock and key!

let me guess .............the knee jerk reaction will be the FDA requires a label on antidepressant pill bottles along with the "dont drink alcohol" label that states " do not play with firearms while under the influence of antidepressants"!

funny how they dont tell you about anti-depressants and the side effects. as i have read...........if you take them for a year, you will experience the same effects for a year after discontinuing their useage. users become violent. users crave sugars. users crave booze(sugar) and on and on with the side effects.

seems to me everyone involved with this kid failed or turned their back on him and finally his world closed in on him. add to this the gloom and doom feelings elicted by the anti-depressants and you have a recipe for disaster. throw in an irresponsible gun owner with out his weapon under lock and key and we have pretty much figured this juan out!

and mark my words there will be more school shootings until every principal and teacher is armed. and there will be more mall shootings until concerned citizens thwart a shooting and it makes the nightly news.

there will be more violence associated with anti-depressants simply due to the sheer numbers of people being prescribed them.

until it is viewed on the radio/the newspapers/ the nightly TV news, that an armed citizen, w/or without a CCW takes the situation in hand and thwarts the threat, will it be viewed as a really stupid way of venting ones violence or grievance.

as far as individuals pulling the "suicide by cop" stunt, i just dont have an answer for that one. beats the hell out of me what goes thru peoples minds somedays!

whats it gonna take for you to get off your ass and protect yourself and your family from this continued violence? your neighbors being blown away by a home invasion? your friends blown away in a mall or a bank. a pelican blown away in a car-jacking?????

it honestly makes me feel embarrassed to say im a citizen of the greatest country this world has ever seen somedays! everyone says we need more gun laws, yeah right like that made a difference in omaha! lawyers want to sue the gun mfgs. yep that made a difference here, go sue china! until law abiding citizens take crime by the balls and say enough is enough...............it will continue, MARK MY WORDS!

I am sure it was a semi-auto AK variant. I had my doubts to it being an SKS since the SKS has an integral magazine (although there were a few variations that had detachable magazines).

The news reports I saw emphasized that the legality of the gun is not in question.

I heard on the radio that he broke into the gun safe.

Omaha is a CCW state. What else is left?

Well, Nebraska is actually a CCW state. No idea how Omaha's CCW laws are. Most states have pre-emption laws that don't allow cities to make gun laws any more restrictive than the state's gun laws. Still, the "gun-free zones" almost guarantee that only criminals will be armed there. I am a criminal in that regard, since I ignore "gun-free" signs unless I see a metal detector.

I'm 99% positive Omaha allows CCW. Kyle should be able to verify 100%

Rick Lee - Man at large!

Additionally, now that I think about it, I don't recall any signs at that mall either. I've been to that Von Maur and mall before.

Kyle, my memory is serving me correctly here, isn't it?

If it was the westwoods mall that the shooting took place, then you are correct
reference:http://thinking-between-the-lines.blogspot.com/2007/12/concealed-weapons-banned-in-omaha-mall.html

On a side note, I finally remembered an old site about round penetration through walls.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

CC: When were you last in Nebraska? The CCW law has only been active since January, 2007. Anti-CCW posting would have taken place after that.