CCW holders, when would you intervene?
 

So, the discussion of the mall shooter made me wonder about this.

For those of you with CCWs, would you intervene in a shooting spree?

Let's say this situation: you are walking in your local mall, when you hear shots and people fleeing past you. You gather that somewhere up ahead there is a gunman in the mall, shooting at shoppers. As far as you know, neither your family nor anyone you know is in the mall. You are carrying whatever you usually carry, in my case a .38 J-frame with five rounds - in other words, you don't happen to be conveniently toting an AR.

What would you do? Intervene? Take cover? Flee?

(This situation is taken from an actual mall shooting in Tacome, WA.)

I also have a .38.

I'm not sure what good its going to do against someone with a rifle. You have to be damn close to get off a sure shot with the thing. Your probably only going to get 1-2 shots before he can return fire, and your chances of survival go down hill pretty fast after that.

I think my reaction would depend largely on if I had my family with me. I would be more likely to intervene if I was alone. If had my family with me, I would look for a defensible position.

i agree. you would have to be in close range and have a good shot(s). i would like to think i would react a certain way, but since i've never had someone shooting at me, i'm not sure what i would actually do.

...what if you had a shotgun?

...and he was threatening to *sigh* steal a TV?

...and it was your neighbors store?

...and they were armed with a crowbar instead of a gun?

Then I'd call 911 and watch a TV walk away if need be.

But, back to the mall shooter scenario . . .

poo my pants and run away like a girly mon, knocking down little girls and pregnant women on the way. Oh and grabbing a few high value but portable thangs on the way out. Then sell my story to the press for ONE MILLION DOLLARS. :)

Fleeing and finding cover, helping others around you that have not figured that out do the same. If BG was in my effective range (<15 feet) and is a clear threat then I'd defend myself from cover.

Having a CCW doesn't make you a cop.

What if you ran towards the sound of gunfire, and the cops came in right after you and mistook you for the shooter?
"NO, I'm the GOOD guy with the gun. HE'S the bad guy with the gun. Promise!"

Or, go one further and let's say you run towards the sound of gunfire with noble thoughts. You see a guy in street clothes with a gun, pointing it around. You be the hero and nail him right in the head. WHOOPS, he was an off-duty police officer and was just about to take down the real shooter when you blew his brains out.

There's just too many ways you (the CCW guy) could make it worse than it already is, IMO.

It's a good question, but nearly impossible to answer with any certainty because of the old "every situation is unique, blah, blah...."

If I was armed w/ a decent gun, (the only kind I believe in and own), and had a decent chance, I'd definitely try to terminate the threat. One feasible scenario would be that I was hiding or had taken cover and the murderer was moving around looking for more victims, (their usual M.O. in psycho shootings), when he got close enough to me I would give him my little surprise.

Another scenario would be that I was far enough away to run, but had a clean shot and a full clip or two. I would try my luck and marksmanship, then run like hell if all my shots missed. This would ideally be done from cover, and even if all my shots missed I might force him to waste a lot of ammo in the fire fight. Maybe even run out. In which case I would kill him with a blunt object.

Where's Markus aka livi????

LOL!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/128.gif

So the moral of this thread is this: Never go to the mall with anything less than an AR-15.

In a heartbeat.
Of course I have the added experience of being a pro shooter for a few years. Adreneline rush, hands, sight picture, squeeze.

Most take the course and shoot 2 or 3 times a year. Slow fire, no pressure.
Different ballgame.
Re: Speeder, I'd feel confident enough to take a long, deliberate, shot because I know my weapons.
Oh, and in times of pressure, I become an emotionless *********. Ask my wife. It pisses her off.

I just took another CCW course and several situations were posed, as discussion points.

If there is an active shooter, not just someone threatening to use a firearm, you as a CCW holder have a moral obligation to do something. In the case of the mall shooting, with the fact that he was using a rifle and was sniping from cover on the 3rd floor, a CCW would have been of little use.

A concealed handgun would have been useful at Virginia Tech, but not so much in the Omaha mall.

hey..........lets turn this around. where in the hell were the jackbooted, black BDU mall guards??

where were the undercover cops?????

where were the offduty cops always hired by malls???

are the malls i go to different?

where were the mounted posse like we have at our malls here?

and finally...........where in the hell were any CCW people??? interesting side note would be how many CCW people were in the mall when this went down???


as for me being chastised for carrying ALL THE TIME, i would have shoved my g/friend on the ground, pulled weapon, racked round , safety off, acquire target, and let the MUTHA FUCHER HAVE IT! el permanente! at the very least i could lay down suppressing fire to thwart any more shots on his part.

now heres some reality yesterday. g/friend and i leave bass pro shops. i am carrying. as we leave 2 cops outside. both of us figured a shoplifting call. as we leave parking lot , funny unmarked cars and then marked mesa/tempe/scottsdale/saltriver pima rez cops/ DPS at all the onramps/exits to 101 freeway. then we see crime scene.

bank robbed, armed bad guy goes a 100 miles an hour headon into woman and kills both!

dont know about you, but at age 50, im sick of this crap!

i didnt get drawn for elk or antelope this year, did get drawn for deer and the wolves(55 messikan grey wolves) beat us to the dinner table, but if this crap keeps up..................i just may mount a bad guy on my wall and put notches in my pistole handle.

AND I WONT THINK TWICE ABOUT IT!

I'm doing my Christmas shopping at the mall closest to Dan's house. :D

I'm not so sure that carrying a concealed weapon into a mall is welcomed in most jurisdictions, though I could be wrong.

i will not shop at such an establishment............period!

this is a joke this still continues!

oh he/shes depwessed............give 'em a pill, it will make it better!

lets see antidepressents + weapons = mayhem. no brainer there.

its a proven fact SSRI's make quite a few people very very very violent. and knowing first hand there effects from my ex..................not one person w/SSRI's should be allowed to possess a WEAPON!

you cant FLY a plane nor SCUBA DIVE and you probably shouldnt even drive let alone have a weapon. but no we will keep prescribing this crap until someone impotent gets killed !

now lets see how many copy cats pull stunts btwn now and the end of the year!

Good points as usual red-beard.

And a further point. I think I recall that someone on another thread pointed out that CCW holders are not allowed to carry at malls in Nebraska.

Agreed but in the Omaha situation had I been in the area of the shooter and seen the perp shooting someone, there would have been little hesitation. The next step would have been to drop him, just as he deserved.

Also agree with Dan that no matter how far away I was (within reason), if it was clear that the perp was killing innocent people that I would have tried to take him out.

Anyone can do nothing and run the other way and try to hide. America did not become the great country that it is by standing around and doing nothing. There very well may come a time when each of us is called upon to risk our safety to help someone else. Thats when you tell the men from the boys... Lets all hope that we each do the right thing and do it well.

Try at least to draw his attention from the random shooting, possibly letting folks escape/hide etc...Do not attempt to take hm out unless he is coming to you.

Somebody made a point about the possibility of them being an off duty officer. If he has taken the time to grab his rifle, more than likely he has grabbed his vest and badge to go with it. He will or shoulf be identifiable as an LEO.

If it was clear who the shooter was and I had a clean shot, I'd (hopefully) absolutely take it. Even if I missed, I guarantee it would slow him down.

Can't imagine I'd be too keen on hunting a hidden sniper with a pistol.

- Skip

You're incorrect. In most CCW states, you cannot carry in restaurants that serve alcohol and you can be charged with trespassing if a business owner prohibits CCW in their business, sees you carrying, asks you to leave and you refuse. Malls are pretty much CCW territory and I totally ignore the off-limits rules anyway. I even carry in the post office. Why would I disarm myself in places where there is most likely to be a shooting and no cops to do anything about it?

I carry 100% of the very few times I step foot in a mall. But my usual carry piece, a SIG P239 in .40, vs. an AR-15 would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Still, if I were alone and within range, I'd try to take the perp out. I am an excellent shooter, but have never been in such a situation.

Gogar, whether you're armed or not, when the cops show up after gun play, they assume everyone is a perp, even a sleeper. Remember the footage of the kids at Columbine all running out with their hands over their heads? You are not safe under any circumstance once gun play has commenced. I'd rather end it, if possible, than wait for 911 dial-a-prayer to save me.

Shooter was a Felon, so he obtained the firearm illegally. Rifle was described as an SKS.

I think most of us can tell the difference between an off duty, or plain clothes cop trying to control the situation and a lunatic on a shooting spree. Like some have mentioned, every situation will be different. Different levels of certainty as to what is going on. None of us have any experience whatsoever in anything remotely approaching this kind of thing. One would hope you could be the hero and save the day, but things could come unravelled so very quickly. I'm sure plenty of CCW holding Walter Mittys run through scenarios like this in their minds, and picture themselves victorious, revelling in attention and glory; tickertape parade and all of that. Hardly ever works out that way.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of private firearms defensive situations are to protect your own hide. It's pretty darn rare that a CCW holder is present when the "big one" goes down. Or even when some one else is getting beaten or robbed. I have never actually witnessed such a thing. If I ever do, I would try to help out. I would hope most people would, armed or not. Having a CCW does not make one any more or less obligated to intervene, but it does make one more capable. Maybe in that light it does make one more obligated, but I would do the best I could armed or not.

Nebraska only passed CCW last year and has only been in effect for something like 11 months. There are probably not too many people licensed to carry a concealed firearm yet.

Well, that would be a dead giveaway that the shooter is not a cop. No cop carries a Chinese junk gun rifle, on duty or off.

I also disagree with the "moral obligation" to intervene. It's easy to casually aver such a thing, but I think it's foolish.

I carry to protect myself and those in my care/custody/control -- not to venture out and save others. A CCW or other permit is not a deputization, nor does it create an imperative to put yourself at risk to intervene... I carry to protect myself, not to put myself at risk or to protect "the public."

As an analogy, I'm an EMT. Do I have a moral obligation to stop at every not-yet-attended-by-first-responders automobile accident? Must I, without any BSI, provide CPR (including mouth-to-mouth) to a crackhead, whose mouth is full of vomit that I come across, off duty? The Peoples' Republic of New Hampshire has answered in the affirmative ... if you're licensed by NH as an EMT, you must stop and render assistance (as long as there is not unreasonable danger to your safety).

OK, blah blah blah. In the shooting hypothetical posed, if I thought I could effectively intervene, I probably would... again, assuming there is nobody else with me that I would be placing in danger by my absence. Remember... if there's one shooter, there very well may be several (Columbine), and if I run off to play hero, leaving my ward behind, I've abandoned them in a very dangerous situation.

JP

Things get a bit more interesting on two way ranges. Lots of handguns are capable of hitting at 100yds, though not as well as a rifle.

The standard USMC pistol qualification is supposedly harder than the CCW course, having the USMC one exempts me from firing the CCW. I, and other, can still shoot an expert score when shooting everything from 100 yards with our CCW handguns. The energy is down and there is even less likelihood of stopping an individual with one hit but…

S/F, FOG

OK, good to know.

?, so the first victim was on the 2nd floor/shooter on 3rd..so I'm shopping..clown next to you pulls out a rifle ..aims downward..gun or no gun..why didnt someone just jump his butt..sure a victim or 2..but if your next to guy..odds are better if you tackle..instead of running

Rika

Rikao4,

The reason is the vast majority of people are very unfamiliar with dynamics of close combat. Add in the whole fight or flight instinct to the lack of study, training and practicable experience and it is easily understandable.

S/F, FOG

Sounds reasonable. But having been around guns my whole life and, indeed, being around them all day every day, I'm still not sure I'd be able to immediately accept or understand what was happening. I've never been in such a situation and haven't had the tactical training drilled into my head. All I know how to do is shoot real well at the range, not be a cop. When the police shot and killed my neighbor a while back, I heard the gunshot, was pretty sure it was a gunshot and then dismissed it as too improbable and didn't even go to the window to look. Not until the next morning when I saw news trucks all over my street did I believe what had happened.

So, my personal view -

My first priority is safety of family and self. And I know my limitations with the 2" .38. So if the shots sounded like a rifle, I would hide or flee. If I had a chance to take a high-odds shot (say the gunman walks close by and doesn't notice me cowering in a rack of summer dresses) then maybe I would. Who knows what any of us really "would" do. I just hope I wouldn't do somethng stupid and and leave my family without me.

+1

I can't predict my reaction or my ability to recognize such a situation, having never been in one before.

You mean you can reliably hit center mass at 100 yds with a 2" J-frame, with the adrenalin pumping and being shot back at? Hmm . . .

John,

Look into a 1911. It’s flatter for concealment, only slight longer and can engage out to 100 yds. Before someone spouts off about the drop it’s only about an inch more than a .22 lr at 100 yds. There are some aluminum frame 1911s out there if you’re weight conscious.

The only down side is time for more practice. Thinking about it the money difference is irrelevant, the legal costs incurred with use are far more than a high end 1911 and 10-20k of training ammunition.

Edit. No I use 1911s, though I can hit with a POS M9 and almost as well with a SIG. I have trouble with Glocks and can do the slow fire stuff but Glocks and I do not get along very well. I do not carry wheel guns and only own a couple, both 6” barrels. I have never attempted the course of fire with a wheel gun as it doesn’t suit the six round capacity.

S/F, FOG

Sorry, but the percentage of even seasoned shooters who can expertly place a 1911 round at 100 yrds. is extremely small. Such a 1911 would be a pretty fancy gun too and I don't like to carry anything that I can't easily afford to replace, since you will lose it if you ever have to use it. I love my 1911's and maybe they're great as house guns. But I wouldn't expect to use one for distance shooting in a defensive situation. Besides, anything that's 100 yds. from you is not a threat that you can do anything about.

I have a micro-1911 (Detonics CM), I am better w/ it than w/ the J-frame, but it is a heavy little lump (steel frame). Will check out one of the lightweight Commander-sized 1911s.

Rick, I don't hope you think I insinuated that the shooter may be a cop. I was just trying to create a ridiculous scenario where some whacko starts shooting in a mall, and a bunch of CCW heros all draw their weapons and start shooting each other in an adrenaline-fueled nightmare.

And I do agree with you that when the cops do show up, anyone inside the mall with a gun in their hand better be very, very careful.

Oh, I'd take him out all right.

But even if I had a gun, I'd keep it in my pocket and take him out by ka-rah-tay. Probably a roundhouse.

Because that's how I roll. Old skool.