Selling my photography -- small business idea...

[djmcmath]

Here's another one for the wide market sampling of the Pelican OT. For a lot of years, I've wandered around and noticed cool things that make good pictures. While I'm definitely not the next Steve McCurry, and I'll never get a phone call from National Geographic, my friends and family have long urged me to sell my work -- "find a magazine to sell pictures to, or sell calendars, or go to a local coffee shop and get your work up on the walls," they tell me. It'll never make me a millionaire, but it could certainly make the car payment for my next Porsche.

After much ado, I'm finally taking some action. For September and part of October, I'll have my work on the walls at a local coffee shop. It's kind of a "proof of concept," to see if people who don't know me are interested enough in my work to give me cash-dollars to hang it on their own walls. If it works, there are a dozen local shops that sell local artists' work, as well as periodic art festivals and the like. If it doesn't work, I may be back here in two months asking if anyone wants some excess inventory, "real cheap."

Some ideas have occurred to me to help make this make just a little bit more effective. Some obvious things are to have a variety of sizes and styles of prints available -- 28x34 prints are nice, but relatively few people will want to spend $300 on a piece of art, while a lot more people will be likely to spring for a $35 8x10 or 11x14 print. I may even go so far as to have postcards available -- a collection of a dozen or so of my most popular works, in 3x5 or 4x5 selling for a buck or two each.

The next big thought is to set up a website with a broader collection of my work. Dan's Fine Art Photo .com, or something. Playing off the "I'm just a poor starving local artist," I could just use my ISP's provided web space and e-mail address to take orders, or I could set up a full-fledged professional site, complete with online ordering and the works. While I'm a little nervous about going overboard in the online thing, I suspect that's where the long term application on this will end up. I envision using the local shops as a way to get my name out to the public, while the website is the actual mechanism for most of the sales.

Thoughts? Anyone here ever buy art in a coffee shop, or from an individual photographer's web site? What was it that made you say, "Yes, this looks like something I want?" And what were the things that made you say, "Well, I like the work, but ... I think I won't buy?"

Looking forward to reading the responses. Thanks in advance, all.

Dan

[Dave L]

We have an arts festival in town every year and every year it seems to be the same people selling their stuff. Many do exactly what you have described and they keep showing up each year so I would hope that they are making money at it. I have purchased a number of the smaller pictures (8x10s) but havent bitten on a larger piece yet.

here is one guy I like, he does really nice landscapes

http://www3.sympatico.ca/dsmphoto/index.htm

Of note here is that he has taken pictures in different countries. I presume that vacations become "photography expeditions" so that the expense can be claimed against income

I might just buy me a camera

[djmcmath]

DSM Photo isn't bad -- they must be pretty good, because they've got a full-fledged brick-and-mortar gallery. My personally biased opinion is that most of my work is better than his, quite frankly. It will be very interesting to me to see what the open market thinks.

Writing off travel as business expenses is one idea that's occurred to me, but I don't know how well that would fare when the IRS came to call. "We'd like you to explain to us how a two week trip to the Bahamas can be considered a 'business expense.'" Ooh, not fun. I am curious about any good ideas to legitimately save money on taxes -- I've heard rumors that small businesses get a good deal on taxes, but I don't even know where to start looking.

Back to your experience, Dave -- what was it that made you buy an 8x10, and why would you not buy something larger?

[Nape75'911T]

if I SEE it, and if it speaks to me, regardless of your fame, or lack thereof. So, with your web setup, make sure people can find you......good luck, I think it's great.

Mark

[widebody911]

Your chances of success would be greater if you subjects were well-endowed young women....

[Porschephile944]

This sounds like it could be a fun way for you to earn some extra cash on the side of your regular job, or at least cover the expenses of something that you enjoy doing. Similar concept to being paid to drive a Porsche.... now if I can figure out how to make that work

Another great place to look for perspective customers is various clubs and organizations. Think about it, are you more willing to impulsively buy a picture of a Porsche or a fire hydrant? For example there is a Horticultural society near my house that has an awesome building and grounds. Membership is fairly cheap there are lots of die hard gardeners who go there (I'm not a die hard gardener, they just have a good restaurant and I like walking around). In there main building they have a hallway that basically everyone walks through and they always has various works of art for sale. Sounds like they do it in the same manner as the coffee shop you mentioned. All the works are by the same artist and most of them are displayed for about six weeks. The only time I have seen almost all the pieces sell is when they were inexpensive, lots of the pieces were under 200 dollars and all the works has some relation to the society. Every other display they have had barely sells any of the pieces, and all the art relates to gardening in some way. The only difference that I can figure out is that people are much more willing to spend 150 dollars than they are willing to spend 500+ which definitely makes sense. It seems like you grasp this concept pretty well though. The coffe house provides a board market for lots of different types of photographs but I think you will do much better if you can concentrate on selling at least some of the photographs to a specific set of people. You might also want to look into just selling prints instead of framed photos, especially if your intending to do lots of web sales.

[Dave L]

Originally Posted by djmcmath

DSM Photo isn't bad -- they must be pretty good, because they've got a full-fledged brick-and-mortar gallery. My personally biased opinion is that most of my work is better than his, quite frankly.

I dont think the website shows the true talent of what he has, I have always been impressed with landscape pictures and they dont seem to have many on the site. If you are better I would like to see what ya got

Originally Posted by djmcmath

Back to your experience, Dave -- what was it that made you buy an 8x10, and why would you not buy something larger?

$40 in pocket = a picture. $300 for a large format means seeking out a bank machine and giving it more thought. At that point I usually start thinking about all the other things I could buy with $300. Personally I think the big sales are in the small formats (8x10etc) and the large pictures are merely used to draw people in to take a look. I am sure people do buy the larger formats but those are going to be the people who are going to the gallery, for coffee shops and art festivals think impulse buy.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by djmcmath

Writing off travel as business expenses is one idea that's occurred to me, but I don't know how well that would fare when the IRS came to call. "We'd like you to explain to us how a two week trip to the Bahamas can be considered a 'business expense.'" Ooh, not fun. I am curious about any good ideas to legitimately save money on taxes -- I've heard rumors that small businesses get a good deal on taxes, but I don't even know where to start looking.

Ask around and find a good accountant. Remember, CPA does not always = good accountant, a PA can do your taxes just as well. Often times a PA will be more aggressive, as they have less on the line (no CPA to lose). I'm really not talking cheating, but maximizing your deductions as a small business owner can require some creativity.

From what I know (wife = accountant), if you are able to at all justifty a trip as being business related, you're golden. Take some pictures, scout out some local galleries, and you are set. You can also deduct pretty much all expenses incurred. Mileage, gas, home office, cameras, etc.

Let's see how long it takes VASteve (CPA) to set me straight, and tell me how things should be done.

[Joeaksa]

In College and for a while afterwards I did some work that sold quite well and was published in a few papers and magazines as well. Do not sell yourself short and you never know, Nat Geo might be calling if you get the right shot!

[djmcmath]

It sounds like the Voice Of Reason dictates smaller pictures and prints-only -- and that's a perfectly workable model for me. Personally, I hate matting and framing, and B&W prints are quick and easy to do. The instant-purchase could be slightly tricky with the model at this coffee shop -- the owner doesn't interact with the purchase process at all, and refers all questions about the artwork directly to me. The advantage is that he makes no commissions; the disadvantage is that I probably lose a lot of the whimsical sales. I wonder if I could make some kind of arrangement with him: any cash sales under $50 he can handle on the spot for a commission; I'll take the others. Hmm.

I also really like the idea of marketing to a particular group: the local horticulturists club is a brilliant idea. With some luck, I could persuade them to let me take pictures of their own work (flowers), then sell them pictures of their work. What a scam! I suppose the same could be true of the local PCA or SCCA -- Porsche guys always like pictures of Porsches, especially if they're well done. I ought to know -- I have models and pictures up all over the place (more before I was married, oddly enough...).

One of the other artists who periodically exhibits at this shop does 4x6 foot paintings that he sells for $2000 each. He's independently wealthy in real estate, so he doesn't particularly care if he sells anything. However, if he sells one piece, he's probably making more profit than I will make during my entire exhibit. I think my price point will peak at perhaps $300 for the best of the large work, with most of the median work in the $100-$150ish range, and a collection of smaller (8x10, 11x14) work in the $30-$70 range. That should cover the range, as well as leaving me some large work on the walls to draw interest from across the room.

Part of me thinks that claiming any travel where I carry a camera as a business expense is a bit shady. If that's how it's done, then I could probably eventually come to grips with my conscience. Hiring a pro to worry about the money makes sense in the long run -- if this actually turns into something, that's probably the best way to do it.


If DSM doesn't have his best work on his website, he may be missing out on some opportunities. Odd. I'll post a few of mine when I get home today. I'll be honest -- most of them are not all that fantastic. They're honestly just well-educated tourist-grade photos. I'll also post a link to the website once I've got something up and running; I'm about 40% of the way done, and just working on fleshing out the details.

Thanks for the encouraging words, all. I'll certainly keep ya'll posted on how it goes.

[LeRoux Strydom]

Dan, have you considered placing your pictures on one of the many stock photo websites? You submit your keyworded photos, and if a magazine, newspaper, ad agency of whoever wants to use your photo, they purchase it off the website (by subscription, usually) who in turn, pays you. This can provide a nice annuity income stream to a photographer long after the initial work has been done. A typical sale can be only $0.50/pic to maybe $4/pic, which sounds like pocketmoney, but you can sell the same pic many times over. If you build up a nice portfolio, you can earn a couple hundred $ a month.

It amounts to selling "digital" prints versus paper prints. The only possible downside is that you usually sign over copyright to the website owners.

Check out some of the bigger stock photo sites:

http://www.shutterstock.com
http://istockphoto.com
http://www.dreamtime.com

[djmcmath]

Alright, a random sampling of my work:

Charleston Battery Park, taken when I was just a young photographer.


I like this shot, and have done it a number of times in a number of ways . This isn't my favorite rendition of the image, but it's all I have scanned.


Grand Tetons; the kid in the foreground is what made this shot work, in my mind.


Switzerland -- can I write that off as a business expense?


Rome, obviously. I had to set the tripod up on the railing to get this shot. I managed to attract at least a little attention, balancing up on a railing with a large format camera (complete with bellows and hood) getting this one at 10 o'clock one night. I don't care if I ever sell any prints of this one -- it was fun to get the negatives.

[deanp]

Dan- I hope you are open to constructive criticism from a fellow hobbyist. I think the shots shown are good, however they all have elements that I would look at and say this could be better in this way.

Starting from the top - The backdrop is good, however I would get rid of the sign if at all poosible, but what I struggle with is the carriage 'driver' with his back to you. The historic charm of the tree and the house fighting the shorts and white socks. A moment later with the horse and driver facing forward may have been enough to overlook the attire.

Vietnam War Memorial - great perspective, good focal distance with the Washington Monument. The lighting reflections along the wall are interesting, but the two about 1/3 of the way in from the left of the frame above the plane of the rest of the lights shouldn't be there.

Grand Tetons - flat lighting, hazy mtns. No highlights or shadows on the peaks. Tough gray cloud cover lacks definition.

Chateau in Switzerland - again, flat light. The sky is too gray, the foliage not vibrant enough and lacking good shadow depth and definition.

Colosseum - best of the bunch, good lighting, good shadow definition, like the taillight blurring from exposure in the foreground. Only thing that detracts from this for me is the fencing that they heve erected at street level. Does this work cropped in a different way to eliminate that element?

Sorry to be nitpicky, but I think that's what makes these good shots and not great shots.

[TimothyFarrar]

Dan,

Welcome to what I have been trying to do for a living (selling fine art photography at art shows), and I really should be getting some sleep, because I have to get up in about 4 hours to drive North of Chicago for a show tomarrow.

Here is the deal with art shows, and I am going to tell you exactly how it is because I wished that someone would have done this for me before I got into this.

Right now in Illinois at least, the art show market for photography is way down. Just did the #1 ranked show in the US over the previous weekend and not many buyers there. Over heard that another landscape photographer who has been doing this for a living for over 10 years had 3 shows in a row this year with ZERO sales. Last weekend was my first show this year where I didn't cover my costs. It is a tough market at the art shows, not the place where you will make enough money to pay off your Porsche.

With the art show market, you have to prep almost a year in advance, sending in slides of your work (in December for the next years shows) and your booth setup to the better shows to get juried against the other hundreds of photographers trying to get into the shows. You will need to put down about $10G just to have a good booth setup including tent, panels, inventory, bins, wireless credit card machine, etc. If you do this, and you get into good shows, expect to pay over $500 or so per show (for the top ranked ones). So if you do 10 shows a year, $5000 in show fees due months before the shows start. Then tack on your gas, parking, etc. And you will need to have some kind of truck for transportation. Add that into the cost of doing business. Also doing the shows takes up at least 50% of your summer weekends, unless you are doing shows in Florida, which is year round. And you are going to have to do many many shows to make enough money to pay for anything. Now when you are at the shows, you get up at 4-5am to drive in for setup, then work 6-8 hours, then closeup, comeback the next day, do it again, pack up, drive home.

You will need to have both lower priced works (matted) of photos which constantly sell, and more expensive large works which do not sell often to make enough money at the shows. Also you will need to come up with a formula which sells well.

First thing you should know is that the average art buyer knows nothing about photography. As a photographer this will confuse the hell out of you at first. Some guy can have the worst developed images of some little door in Italy printed huge on canvas (to hide the fact that they don't have the resolution to print large on photo paper), and people will flock to it and buy into it. Even if you had copies of Ansel Adams work in a near by booth, it wouldn't make any difference. You still would get out sold by that crappy image of a door in Italy. However if you purchase a double or triple booth, and have a 12 foot tall tent setup, you might actually sell well. People tend to go to the booths that look the most expensive and buy from them, regardless if there is higher quality work elsewhere in the show.

Formulas for Photography which sell well at the art shows, assuming you have one of the most impressive booth setups at the show :

If you are in a big city like Chicago, having really good shots of the city, say a large panorama, will become your bread and butter. Plus one if you have captured the city with a skyline where the windows lights at night spell out the CUBS, BEARS, etc.

In Chicago at least, there is a vast market for crappy pictures from Italy, France, or any other location where most working people dream about going to and never do. Don't worry about trying to capture scenes in good lighting, midday shots of the most colorful rundown building will sell well.

When the local sports teams are winning, having sports photos sells!

Also when in a very liberal city, having shots of 3rd world nations, more so when the people in the photograph have ultra saturated western made clothing on, you know, that perfect view of 2nd and 3rd world countries that you see in those DOW commercials and other ads for businesses trying to appease the libs with shots of worldly places.

The rest? Well it doesn't sell well, the markets are just too niche.

Personally I've been trying to sell beautiful landscape shots of America. And yes there is a market for it, but the market is small at the art shows. Most of the landscape photographers selling well do so close to national parks, or other tourist locations. The fantasy world that most people have in their minds about how green the grass is outside of the US sells 1000x times over the truth of how awesome the US is.

If you want to sell photography at the shows, first goto the shows, stay there all day, and watch what people are buying. Know exactly what you are getting into before you invest into it.

Other markets,

Also in my experience, you sure are not going to make money selling art out of coffee houses, or other low end places.

Also forget doing small galleries, unless there is a really really good sales effort going on at the gallery. At the lower end galleries, most of the art just sits on the walls. If the gallery owner isn't doing the gallery as a full time job, then find another gallery. You want someone who is depending on making money on your work, someone who is going to be pushing your work to sell.

You could try stock, but watch out for the penny stock. Most stock photographers making money do the high end. Meaning medium / large format and setups (models + lighting, etc) which a low end photographer couldn't dream of getting into.

You could try publications, but you will need to be specialized at what the publication wants, and its small change in most cases (a few hundred), so you will need a lot of images per year to make money.

You could do weddings, school photos, and local events. This is a tried and true way to make a living in photography.

You could try corporate photography, ads, buildings, and stuff people will pay big money for. I know of people making a good living doing this, but tough to get into without the right contacts.

You could do photo tours and teach if you are good.

If you want to do fine art, and make a living at it, you need to walk the long path and try to get into the highest end galleries and sell your work to high end clients for thousands. Remember it is not how good your work is, it is who you know, who you've sold to, and what it has sold for.

If you are after nature photography and are conservative (like me) forget it or play along with the concept that the world is going to burn up in a few years due to your carbon foot print, logic and honesty will get you no where.

Or try for a new niche and make your own market.

BTW, websites don't sell photography. Sure as a photographer I have a website, but it is the face to face contact which makes sales. The website is there as a sales tool.

In any case, you will need the most impossibly positive mindset and a great sense of humor in the mist of utter disappointment to be successful, or at least pretend that you are successful

Have fun!

And yes there is an awesome positive side to selling photography. When you begin to meet true art collectors who love your work and get excited just seeing it on their walls, and come back to buy more because they just cannot get enough of it. That's what does it for me.

In case you are interested here is my site, www.farrarfocus.com. My wife and I do this together.

And here are some of our better selling images.

[djmcmath]

Dean -- I definitely appreciate the feedback. I know my images aren't perfect, and strive to improve my work when I'm in the field. Thanks for those notes from someone who actually looks at the work and has a handle on what they're looking at.

Like Timothy points out, though, most people don't have a clue. I'm kind of banking on that, I guess, especially here in Norfolk, where the upper class is considered so because they don't speak ebonics. I had a bit of an epiphane regarding espresso a few years back: I can make an absolutely perfect espresso, complete with perfect overtones of blueberry and licorice with no bitter aftertaste. The trouble is that most people can't tell the difference between an absolutely perfect espresso and the mostly mediocre stuff that sells at Starbucks. The same is true of photography, as far as I've been able to see -- there is no direct link between what people love and the artistic quality of the image.

Which gets to what you're saying, Timothy -- thank you for the in-depth review of your profession and the tips on what sells. Holy cow, I had no idea it was that bad. Your work is really quite good -- I aspire to do that someday, but ... wow. Recognizing that I will never have the body of work that you do (unless I quit my day job to do this full time), I may have to settle for pulling the occasional exhibit at a local coffee shop or store, and pulling in a few hundred here and there from the experience. I like your website -- but you get no sales from it? That's disappointing.

Ok, so focus on local work and international stuff. I've got some Europe shots that should sell, but nothing good from Norfolk. Norfolk is so short on picturesque stuff. The skyline is just about as drab and non-descript as skylines get, and the few places that are halfway picturesque are generally cluttered with power lines, street signs ... Of course, I could go revolutionary and use the "disctractions" as elements of the art. Creativity has paid off before.

Thanks for the realistic view of it all, though. I'll set my expectations low; quite frankly, if I can cover my costs on this first exhibit, I'll feel pretty good.

Dan

[TimothyFarrar]

Dan,

Keep in mind that my market knowledge is very localized to the Chicago area. What works elsewhere will be different (perhaps vastly different), so take my words with a grain of salt!

Ok, after getting out the tough parts, many people doing the shows can make over $10G a weekend. I know of some non-photographers doing this. These are the people who have refined what they sell, have been doing it for a while, and have build a loyal following and networking so that when they show up to a show they have a bunch of people purchasing.

Getting return customers pays off, I'm growing about double what I did last year and did less shows this year. I think, like anything of value, it just takes time, dedication, a good product, and great salesmanship to make it work out.

And covering your costs is a good first goal!

[Hugh R]

Tim

Your pictures are stunning!

[djmcmath]

Thanks for the encouraging words, Tim. In recognition of the realization that I'd need to be seriously full time to make a real living off of this, I probably won't go 100% until after I retire. Or at least, until I'm close enough that I can afford to leave my day job and take a loss for a few years.

That said, if I can turn a few hundred here and there by doing exhibitions at coffee shops and local art festivals, I can have fun and justify buying more camera gear.

[djmcmath]

Well, the exhibition is all but over, and I thought I'd share the results, as promised:

First, I should note that the response was positive and enthusiastic: everyone that I spoke to about my work said that they loved it. The coffee shop owner said that the art was the topic of many a conversation, and that I was welcome to come back any time he has an opening.

Second, I made a grand total of 3 sales. Yes, that's right, 3. Oddly enough, it was two Swiss doorknobs and a Venetian canal. No local work, no patriotic work, no Southern-themed stuff, and oddly enough, no small stuff -- the smallest of the 3 was a 12x16 print.

Third ... let me see here. Well, having taken a substantial loss on my first shot at this, I think I get to claim at least part of it on my taxes. I'll have to find a good accountant this year, for sure. The good news is that much of that "loss" produced inventory which can be readily turned around for the next art show. Or in other words, while I spent about $1000 putting together a collection of framed work to hang on the wall for this one, I'll spend about nothin' re-framing said work for the next time this comes up.

So the bottom line: it's not big money. It's hardly even small money. But it's enough here and there to make the time of visiting coffee shops to see if they want to display my work worthwhile.

Thanks again for the inputs and advice, everyone.

Dan

[berettafan]

I love it when someone else appreciates my photography. Not a pro but I have done a few casual gigs. It's not so much profit as it is cash for more equipment and, again, pride of workmanship.

How cool is it that someone else actually paid you $$ for what you saw in your mind and reproduced on paper?!!! It's like a validation of your 'taste'. Just a cool thing.