Running 220V out to the garage?

[RickM]

Somes serious draw there. How many amps is your main service?

"The duty cycle of the Syncrowave 200 is the highest in this class. The Precision TIG draws 81 amps when AC TIG welding at 230A/19.2V and has a limited duty cycle of 10% Duty Cycle."

[legion]

I am guessing that my main service is 100 amp.

I'm going to have a friend who knows electricity better than I do look over my main an sub panels to confirm.

I wonder how much this will cost?

[greglepore]

That's a killer welder. I seriously doubt that absent a full on fab shop you'll ever use the full AC current capacity of that thing unless you're going to weld things like aluminum dumptruck bodies, but I can't blame you for wanting to plan for it. For pretty much anything you can conceive of welding in a home shop, you'll likely never see more than a 30 amp draw. To run an 80 amp "subpanel" I'd really rather run it as a second main panel. Code would allow you to do it off of a 100 or 200 amp main as a sub, it might be easier said than done, and I'd rather do it as a second main. Won't be cheap either way.

BTW, for most stainless you'll run across, a nice mig ( think Miller 180-just bought one myself) w/ stainless wire is fine; won't do big stuff, but you likely won't run into anything ourside of industry that you couldn't do that way.

[John_AZ]

legion,

I don't know what the electrician will cost per hour in your area but the cost of wire is very expensive for 1awg or 4awg wire. I checked a couple of sites and 4awg starts at $1.50 a foot to $3.50 a foot or higher for 1awg. Copper has gotten expensive. How long is the wire run going to be? With the copper thefts so high, check a local recycler for some salvage. You can also get panels at places like Habitat for Humanity resale shops or other local building supply resale shops. In AZ we have a great place called Stardust.

Good luck

John_AZ

[legion]

It's about 17 feet straight, or about 35 feet if you make the appropriate bends.

So that's about $100 for just the wiring. An electrician runs about $75 an hour around here (IIRC).

[Joeaksa]

Chris,

Run bigger wire than you think you may need. With a high draw unit like a welder or compressor, you will thank yourself in the end. We had to run 2 feet with mine and still used #4 wire.

Joe

[RickM]

Originally Posted by John_AZ

legion,

I don't know what the electrician will cost per hour in your area but the cost of wire is very expensive for 1awg or 4awg wire. I checked a couple of sites and 4awg starts at $1.50 a foot to $3.50 a foot or higher for 1awg. Copper has gotten expensive. How long is the wire run going to be? With the copper thefts so high, check a local recycler for some salvage. You can also get panels at places like Habitat for Humanity resale shops or other local building supply resale shops. In AZ we have a great place called Stardust.

Good luck

John_AZ

Can't you utilize aluminum for a major feed of this type?

[svandamme]

i'm not recognizing anything in them electrical boxes, all looks different here in Europe, since we run 220 for everything

but i have to ask, 80 amps, surely you'de be running more then 1 phase right???

eg, not 2 wires for the full 220v/80A

but 3 wires, A B C, with 3 phases AB-AC-BC, each doing about 1/3rd of the work, right???
even that would be 30 A each, and serious wiring required

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by svandamme

but 3 wires, A B C, with 3 phases AB-AC-BC, each doing about 1/3rd of the work, right???
even that would be 30 A each, and serious wiring required

That's not how it works - even in Europe. Thirty amps is not exactly serious, but 80 is a bit more so.

On the topic, make sure you hire a qualified electrician who knows how to use a code book. I haven't run feeders for a welder in a long time, but you may have to size up from the ampacity actually required. For example, it may need to be sized at 125%. In this case, not the worst thing in the world. I would run a 100 amp sub (or main as suggested by others). Might even be a good time for a service upgrade to 200 amps depending on your demand elsewhere in the household, i.e. electric heaters, water heater, stove, etc. Again, because of the demand placed on your system, make very sure you hire qualified help.

BTW-your sub panel is 220 and wired for 60 amps. Unlike WB's they used 2 wire (ground wire not counted) service entrance cable on yours so the neutral is not insulated. Can't say I would do it that way as you have no ground technically. Also, the ground and neutral "shall not" be bonded at a sub panel so either way that's a code violation. As suggested, you could use aluminum SE cable. You would need to size up, but it's cheap compared to copper and much easier to install (if code for your area allows this). It would be 2/2/2 AL SE cable.

[SLO-BOB]

PS I'm seeing current draw at 54 Amps on the lit. Am I missing something? That being the case, you may be okay with the 60amp sub.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

That's not how it works - even in Europe. Thirty amps is not exactly serious, but 80 is a bit more so.

i can assure you that for 80 amps you would see 3 phases in Europe in any shop that uses heavy machinery, they have special plugs for em






hardly anybody would have em in a normal house, except perhaps with electrical heating, electric boilers, such as the ones i have right here (not with a plug, but wires in the wall , not just 2 wires for current, but more, seperate big breakers with 3 wires), although not with a big breaker box in the picture above, that's one for a construction yard or big machine shop

just looked it up, that kind of hardware would run (400/230 volt)
over 4 wires
above 40A has to be requested with the utility company, and they come install a new box for it
it's required here for anything that uses more then 13 kVA concurrently

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by svandamme

i can assure you that for 80 amps you would see 3 phases in Europe in any shop that uses heavy machinery, they have special plugs for em

I'm not arguing that. Maybe I read it wrong, but it seemed that you were suggesting that when you have 3 phase, each phase adds up to the current draw.

"but 3 wires, A B C, with 3 phases AB-AC-BC, each doing about 1/3rd of the work, right???
even that would be 30 A each, and serious wiring required"

What I'm saying is each phase is 80 amps, not 80/3.

[greglepore]

To add to the confusion, yes, you can use alu wire. IMHO I'd run a new main w/ 4/0 alu to the new panel, then #4 to the outlet. There would be a minor voltage drop w/ #4 if you ran that to the panel,w/ would then increase the amperage blah blah.

That assumes that you'd actually ever draw 80 amps. Huge difference between 80 amps and 50 something.

Either way, if you're buying a welder that's going to be close to 3k all in, the electrical cost is going to minimal, probably around 750 or so.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

I'm not arguing that. Maybe I read it wrong, but it seemed that you were suggesting that when you have 3 phase, each phase adds up to the current draw.

"but 3 wires, A B C, with 3 phases AB-AC-BC, each doing about 1/3rd of the work, right???
even that would be 30 A each, and serious wiring required"

What I'm saying is each phase is 80 amps, not 80/3.

ah, didn't know that, i'm no electrician, anything requiring that much juice, i'm not touching it... always thought the amps were then spread over the wires

[legion]

Originally Posted by greglepore

Either way, if you're buying a welder that's going to be close to 3k all in, the electrical cost is going to minimal, probably around 750 or so.

That's not so bad.

Funny thing is, I walked into the welding supply store and told them I wanted a machine that could do Mig, and AC/DC Tig. They didn't have such a machine, but Miller used to make one and it cost around $6,000. We figured it was cheaper to buy separate Mig and Tig machines. The Mig machine I'm getting can run on standard 110 and I highly doubt I will ever draw over 30 amps with it. Any heavy-duty jobs I'd use the Tig machine for.

[idontknow]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

T
On the topic, make sure you hire a qualified electrician who knows how to use a code book. I haven't run feeders for a welder in a long time, but you may have to size up from the ampacity actually required. For example, it may need to be sized at 125%. In this case, not the worst thing in the world. I would run a 100 amp sub (or main as suggested by others). Might even be a good time for a service upgrade to 200 amps depending on your demand elsewhere in the household, i.e. electric heaters, water heater, stove, etc. Again, because of the demand placed on your system, make very sure you hire qualified help.

BTW-your sub panel is 220 and wired for 60 amps. Unlike WB's they used 2 wire (ground wire not counted) service entrance cable on yours so the neutral is not insulated. Can't say I would do it that way as you have no ground technically. Also, the ground and neutral "shall not" be bonded at a sub panel so either way that's a code violation. As suggested, you could use aluminum SE cable. You would need to size up, but it's cheap compared to copper and much easier to install (if code for your area allows this). It would be 2/2/2 AL SE cable.

For reference:
Your feeders for the welder only have to be rated for the max amps but no larger than 2x max amps.

IMHO I'd have a new service from the meter brought into the garage and replace the existing sub panel with a 12+ slot panel. Size up the new service to however much your meter box can handle. It may cost a bit more but your family won't hate you for dimming and flickering lights when you're welding. Doing this now would offset the costs for any future additions you may add later.

If you want the cheap option you could run 6/3 to the welder outlet from the main panel, ($120) cord and plug the welders power, ($115 they aren't cheap) install a 60/2 breaker, ($20 SqD QO) and be done with it. Safe and code legal.

[avi8torny]

Originally Posted by idontknow

Technically, yes you can. It's not recommended of course but is legal by NEC standards.

Nonetheless, Legion, can you link some specs on the welder?

Most 80 amp TIG welders are describing their output amperage and not the input amps which are normally around 20-30 amps.

Really? I don't know if I would feel comfortable with drawing that kind of amperage out of a 100 amp box. I ran a new service from the utility because I thought my 150amp garage panel would potentially be to much for the house 200amp panel. I know the draw wouldn't be 150amps but didn't want to take a chance.

[notfarnow]

Holy smokes you guys have nice tidy panels. Mine looks like it was done after the 4th rum & coke. Cleaning up my wiring is going to be a winter project this year.

If you're not in a huge rush, keep an eye in the local classifieds, and call the local scrap & salvage yards for the cable. A friend picked up 50' of 1awg underground cable for $100.

Funny, I had thurs & fri off last week and I went to the scrap yard to unload some aluminum & copper. While I waited, some sketchy guy came up with a van load heavy copper cable. Looked like it was new. The guy at the yard asked where he got it, and he hesitated and said "uh, I bought it from my cousin." Not convincing at all, and after he pulled around to the scale the guys who worked there joked about it being stolen, but they bought it anyway. I called the cops when I got home.

Hey, what 110 mig are you getting?

[legion]

I talked to my friend Tim (TimothyFarrar on this BBS) this weeekend. He told me that he would loan me his 110V Hobart indefinitely. (I suspect until he gets a house and has a place to use it himself.)

Longer term, I'll probably get a Miller 140. Anything more than that and I'll just use the Tig machine.

[notfarnow]

I want to know what the secret project is... you've alluded to roll cages. C'mon!