E85 and a consequence of ethanol production

[MotoSook]

You should know that mileage with E85 decreases in your flex fuel vehicle. I think I saw a 3-5 miles decrease in some listings. So a 16-20 MPG SUV will get 13-15 MPG on E85, simple science really...less energy per gallon, so it needs more to go the same stretch as traditional gas.

They are adding ethanol plants in Iowa as fast as they can go up! It seems everyone in Iowa has gone crazy over ethanol.

I'm surprised to read this in a local paper (midwestern paper):

For every action there is a reaction....

Midwest corn boom threatens to expand 'dead zone' in Gulf

December 18, 2007
The Associated Press
JEFFERSON, Iowa -- Because of rising demand for ethanol, American farmers are growing more corn than at any time since World War II. And sea life in the Gulf of Mexico is paying the price.

The nation's corn crop is fertilized with millions of pounds of nitrogen-based fertilizer. And when that nitrogen runs off fields in Corn Belt states, it makes its way to the Mississippi River and eventually pours into the Gulf, where it contributes to a growing "dead zone" -- a 7,900-square-mile patch so depleted of oxygen that fish, crabs and shrimp suffocate.

The dead zone was discovered in 1985 and has grown fairly steadily since then, forcing fishermen to venture farther and farther out to sea to find their catch. For decades, fertilizer has been considered the prime cause of the lifeless spot.

With demand for corn booming, some researchers fear the dead zone will expand rapidly, with devastating consequences.

[einreb]

I just dont get the ethanol boom... 25 lbs of corn to make a gallon of the stuff. It just seems like it takes an absurd amount of effort and land to produce.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

The upside is it IS renewable whereas oil isn't.

But yes, I agree - you have to put a lot into the creation of it - more than is ultimately worth it.

[berettafan]

e85 will be a bigger scourge on our economy than sub-prime loans ever thought about being. it's a fairy tale being told by special interest groups (farmers are VERY good at working the system) and the end result is outrageous prices for many food products which are a NECESSITY!!!!

the public needs to wake up and call this nonsense for what it is...BULL****!

[frogger]

There's got to be a better way (renewable, effecient, low emissions) than ethanol.

[RoninLB]

e-gas is an activist scam with unintended consequences.

" a 7,900-square-mile patch so depleted of oxygen that fish, crabs and shrimp suffocate."

The reality of the scam is already hitting business mags in past few months. It's good stuf .

The Gulf situation has been written about in fishing mags for years. SCUBA spear fishing articles around old Gulf oil rigs mention to be sure to monitor visibility in advance of leaving port because of the pollution. Those rigs attract fish action.

[Neilk]

Last week's Economist had an article about ethanol causing food prices to go up. Here's a small quote from the article. They said food prices had increased because of China and India's growing wealth. But the predominant cause was ethanol production.

Because this change in diet [ in China and India] has been slow and incremental, it cannot explain the dramatic price movements of the past year. .The second change can: the rampant demand for ethanol as fuel for American cars. In 2000 around 15m tonnes of America's maize crop was turned into ethanol; this year the quantity is likely to be around 85m tonnes. America is easily the world's largest maize exporter—and it now uses more of its maize crop for ethanol than it sells abroad.

Ethanol is the dominant reason for this year's increase in grain prices. It accounts for the rise in the price of maize because the federal government has in practice waded into the market to mop up about one-third of America's corn harvest. A big expansion of the ethanol programme in 2005 explains why maize prices started rising in the first place.

Ethanol accounts for some of the rise in the prices of other crops and foods too. Partly this is because maize is fed to animals, which are now more expensive to rear. Partly it is because America's farmers, eager to take advantage of the biofuels bonanza, went all out to produce maize this year, planting it on land previously devoted to wheat and soyabeans. This year America's maize harvest will be a jaw-dropping 335m tonnes, beating last year's by more than a quarter. The increase has been achieved partly at the expense of other food crops.

This year the overall decline in stockpiles of all cereals will be about 53m tonnes—a very rough indication of by how much demand is outstripping supply. The increase in the amount of American maize going just to ethanol is about 30m tonnes. In other words, the demands of America's ethanol programme alone account for over half the world's unmet need for cereals. Without that programme, food prices would not be rising anything like as quickly as they have been. According to the World Bank, the grain needed to fill up an SUV would feed a person for a year.


Sounds like we need battery powered cars that are recharged at night by nuclear reactors.

[jluetjen]

Actually, the trick is to get ethanol from non-food sources. The problem is that corn's high sugar content makes it relatively easy to distill ethanol. National Geographic had a interesting article on this in the October issue. Right now it takes 1 energy unit of fossil fuel to make 1.3 energy units of corn ethanol. Sugar cane on the other hand (largely due to Brazil's efforts to improve the efficiency of this source) creates 8 energy units of output from 1 energy unit of fossil fuel input.

Depending on the production method, cellulosic ethanol from Switchgrass, agricultural leftovers like corn husks, or forestry wastes like wook chips and bark would produce between 2 and 36 energy units of output for 1 energy unit of fossil fuel input. Algae (aka: Pond Scum) can also be another excellent source. The challenge is that the process hasn't been routinely productionized, nor has the infrastructure (such as refineries) been put in place to support it.

[livi]

Another upside is that you will be able to drive your $ 2 000 000 Koenigsegg CCXR with 1000+ bhp on E85. How is that for an environmental conscience!

[fuelie600]

Tried e85 in my 2002 suburban and got ~12.25MPG. The tank before I got 16.34MPG on regular unleaded. Same driving routine, similar conditions, etc.

Using the current pump prices at the closest e85 station: e87 is at $2.67 per gallon. With the mileage drop, it is like paying $3.63 per gallon of regular. (Unleaded regular is $2.97 at the same station.)

The numbers just don't work for me.

I would consider e85 if it was ethanol from non-food sources. As it is now, I would pay more at the pump and increase the cost of corn and food prices across the board.

No thanks!

....It does smell good though....

[The Gaijin]

Originally Posted by jluetjen

Depending on the production method, cellulosic ethanol from Switchgrass, agricultural leftovers like corn husks, or forestry wastes like wook chips and bark would produce between 2 and 36 energy units of output for 1 energy unit of fossil fuel input. Algae (aka: Pond Scum) can also be another excellent source. The challenge is that the process hasn't been routinely productionized, nor has the infrastructure (such as refineries) been put in place to support it.

And you would need to put every square inch of America under the plow - including your front lawn and every national park - just for a start.

It is a boondoggle - why do we cling to these pipe dreams and out right scams??

[jluetjen]

Has anyone else noted that the price of a gallon of milk is higher then the price of a gallon of (ethanol enriched) gas -- at least around here? Since both share many of the same raw materials it makes sense. I wonder what the relationship was back in the 30's or 40's???

[The Gaijin]

I wonder - lots of energy to produce and transport milk. Pretty closely linked, I would think.

I have read some marginalized farmers are doing well - as they feed their herds a lot of hay and let them graze. The feedlot style dairy herds fed on corn and expensive grains don't have the advantages they were getting..

[Hugh R]

Until I wadded it up last week, my 97 Mazda 626 for about 7 years got consistently 18/19 mpg running ARCO, (E85) then I switched to Chevron which has no ethanol and it consistently went up to 21/22 mpg. A difference of about 10%. If ARCO is more than 10% price difference than Chevron, it probably doesn't make a difference in $/mile, otherwise go with the Chevron.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by einreb

I just dont get the ethanol boom... 25 lbs of corn to make a gallon of the stuff. It just seems like it takes an absurd amount of effort and land to produce.

ADM

[legion]

Originally Posted by widebody911

ADM

ADM is based in Decatur, Illinois. 40 miles south of Bloomington.

Keep in mind, several ADM executives were sent to prison 15 years ago for trying to corner the market (and fix the price) of lysene--a soybean byproduct used in several industrial applications and where Lysol derrives its name from.

I like to think that a company's home city reflects the character of the company--especially when it is by far the largest employer in town. By that standard, ADM is rotten to the core. (I won't go to Decatur--for anything.)

[speeder]

Ethanol is a frigging nightmare, just absolutely nothing good about it unless you're a corn farmer or big corporate player. Do you realize how much WATER it takes to produce that *****? Even if it was an equivalent energy source to gasoline, (it's not even close), it would suck.

America needs to wake-up to this scam. It's rotten. You want to talk about something that is not sustainable?? The US is on course to double its 1970s population w/ fast-breeding, low-earning people and the price of everything is going to go through the roof with current policies/trends. The coming water wars within the US will make people pine for those quaint times back in the turn of the 21st century when everyone was *****ing about oil prices. Wake-up, people!

[MotoSook]

Originally Posted by einreb

I just dont get the ethanol boom... 25 lbs of corn to make a gallon of the stuff. It just seems like it takes an absurd amount of effort and land to produce.

Sure you do B. Put your blinders on along with the darkest shades you can find...that's the what the buyer-on's are doing. Besides, if it's good for one group, it's got to be good for everyone, right?

It's capitalizing on the current energy scare. The same reason you hear and see so many commercials for coal these days. No one has come up with a method to cleanly burn coal, yet there are numerous efforts the we all pay for. There is no efficient method to burn one of the highest sulfur containing fuel sources. Pulverize it, scrub the combustion gas...you name it...it's still the same stuff you started out with. You can't magically make matter disappear without energy and byproducts.

Now they are talking nuclear power plants again. That's fine, just leave it to smart engineers and physicists to do it, and keep ignorant lobbyists, politicians, business developers and accountants out of it.

There's too much short and narrow sightedness amongst the people involved. Now they are talking a big leap in fuel economy that promises to save drivers so much money per year on fuel…yet that's just a solution that won't solve the problem…lack of good comprehensive solutions to everyone driving everywhere. Where is the effort to develop a good public transportation infrastructure that will curve our dependence on cars and planes that consume so much hydrocarbon based fuel? I would love to leave my house and arrive at the office without having to depend solely on my car…and getting stuck in traffic every day.

The world is at a technological stand still when it comes to transportation, because all the effort is aimed toward making the worst solution more efficient. Sure I love driving and riding my combustion based vehicles, but I'd gladly give a large portion of it up for a convenient, clean and cheap method of getting somewhere. I'd love to just use my cars and motorcycles for pleasure driving or riding.

Think about it. What is the root of all our problems? The problem of depleting fuel sources? The problem of environmental pollution, the problem of food chain disruption, the problem of ecosystem damage….it's all related to our dependence on the existing archaic mode of transportation!

[MRM]

This thread is one reason why I like John McCain. While campaining in Iowa he explains that ethanol production is a fiasco and gasahol isn't worth the subsidy money it costs. You might not agree with him on all the issues, but he calls it as he sees 'em. I wonder if he isn't a car nut like us.

[MotoSook]

At the risk of turning this thread into a more political one, I want a president with a strong moral base and a backbone to match. I don't care if he's a Republican or Democrat, he just has to want the facts and the whole story then do what's best given the facts damning all the whiners and doubters. That won't happen anytime soon...and nor will there be a fundamental change in transportation, so we'll still be looking for alternative fuel in the near future.