High End Shotguns

[t951]

I have seen some people here are clearly experts in firearms, and high end items. I was holding a Merkel shotgun yesterday and was wondering something...

A shotgun is so simple, a couple of bits of wood, two simple barrels, and some fillagree'ing...

How come they cost so much? I could see 1200 bucks, but 10g's? There are other brands that are much much more....why is that?

I appreciate fine quality, and pay more for things than most (porsche cars, Panerai watches, etc)...I am just not getting it with shotguns..

I am not trying to be rude or condescending, just curious...


thanks,

t.

[widgeon13]

You are paying for the quality (perceived in some cases), workmanship and sometimes custom work. Many shotguns at high prices are bespoke in all respects.

It's no different from cars, watches, fine jewelry, fly rods and reels. Because of the limited number the price for exclusivity is high.

I've always wanted a Bogdan fly reel but they are min 2G's if you can find one and three to four year wait for manufacturing. A $50 Martin will do the same thing.

[legion]

And I'm not sure I want to spring for an 11-87.

[tabs]

It is the time involved in doing quality work. Most of the "high end" shotguns have quiet a bit of hand engraving and checkering...or let say hand work plus high quality materials.

However the really hugh money is in the collectable end of these guns. On some of these guns 100K isn't anything.

The pecking order in Shotguns usually goes

Purdy..English SXS
Holland & Holland...English SXS
Westley Richards, Rigby, Dickison, Woodward etc...all English SXS

Parker..American...the Packard of American Shotguns
Fox...American SXS
Ithica...American SXS
Winchester..MDL 21 SXS
L C Smith..American SXS
Lefever.. American SXS

All the American companies have long since gone out of business mostly during the Depression. Parker has been recreated in Japan as repros and production has ceased as far as I know, and Remington has restarted very limited production of supposedly less than 50 guns a year...their A1 Special is 48K. Begining price is 12K.


Really high grade shotguns usually come out of Italy or even Spain now...Rizzini, Garbi to name the ones I am familar with.

SXS guns are a world unto themselves. The newer shotguns put the old timers to shame when it comes to any kind of competition. But ask anyone who owns a SXS and they will tell you they love em.

[Jeff Higgins]

As the price climbs, so does the level of hand work employed to make the gun. At the very top end of the scale, for both rifles and shotguns, they are made entirely by hand.

Years ago Jim Carmichael wrote about a visit from a gunsmith that worked for Holland and Holland. He took him on a tour of quite a few American "custom" rifle "makers". Of course these guys are nothing of the kind; they would more accurately be described as rifle "tuners". They use commercial actions, triggers, barrels, stocks (some do make their own stocks, but they are the exception) and assemble them into a rifle. The custom shotgun folks are less prevelant, and only really re-stock or engrave.

When Carmichael asked this guy what he thought of the finist in American custom gunsmiths, he scoffed in that oh-so-British fashion. "A real man makes a gun from a block of steel, with a file."

That is what you are paying for in the really high-end guns and rifles. They do, quite literally, file the individual parts from a block of steel, by hand. They hand fit them to one another. The stocks are hand rasped to shape. You may even make several trips to the gun maker and test fit it, and even shoot it "in the white" before it is finished. Every rifle and gun is an individual. They are made with such precision, however, that individual parts interchange.

Does all of this result in a "better" rifle or gun? Past a certain point, not really. The ones that are still machine made for the most part, then hand fitted, are probably the best available. These are the rifles and guns that approach or exceed roughly the $10k range (new; we're not even getting into collectables). You do see a noticable improvement in function, durability, and beauty at this price range. Beyond that you get into the realm of very rapidly diminishing returns.

There are, of course, rifles and guns at these prices that are more "show" than "go". Many average, or less than average examples are engraved or stocked in expensive wood, driving their prices up. Many see these as "quality" rifles and guns just because they are pretty. Many are not. But, alas, many fall for the embelishments because it makes it more obvious what was spent on them, and it impresses more people. It impresses their friends that don't know much about guns.

One of the most impressive guns I have ever held in my hands was a plain-Jane Perazzi single barrel trap gun. No engraving, kind of nice (but not by any means AAA or exhibition grade wood), but it locked up like a bank vault. After it had had over 100,000 round fired through it in trap competition in the prior couple of decades. My buddy spent over$10k on it. Most folks that saw it and didn't know what it was equated it to the single shot H&R goose gun they started hunting with as a kid. Most folks would wonder why a guy would spend that on a single shot; why he wouldn't get an 870 or 1100 for 1/20th the cost. It was obvious to him; the Perazzi was actually cheaper. He would have worn out far more than 20 Remingtons in that amount of shooting. That is what he was paying for.

[tabs]

My Safari Club friend bought a Kriegoff 28GA Skeet gun without the wood, and is having a stock custom fitted to him. We went out to the Skeet range for him to test fire it to see how much more filing the stock had to have done to it.

I would just rather buy an old SXS and bang away with it, whether I hit much isn't really that important to me. Just so long as I make a respectable showing is all I need.

[tabs]

Numerical Control Machines do today what the craftsman of old used to do. However the ultimate as Jeffysays would be to have those parts hand finished. The engraving though is something that just can't be replicated as well by machine.

[Seahawk]

I shoot skeet a lot and have had many renowned guns on my farm...funny that my son usually out shoots the high dollar guns with his 870 junior, 20 gauge.

It is not about the gun, folks. Go buy your Purdy and then come on out and see how well you do against my Browning A5.

[futuresoptions]

Best shot of my life was with a single shot Bakal 12ga.... made the crowd ooooh.... Was up against a $1200. Bennelli at the time.....

[t951]

Wow, great info!

So, as a person that enjoys target shooting what is a good shotgun to get for the $$. I have an 870 that is reliable and decent, but looks inexpensive. What is a good one for the money.....I don't mind real old and needing love.

I have been looking at lots of old rifles recently and found some that seemed cool. A Remy 40-X, Kimber 22, I saw an 1884 chambered in 45/70 (damn! that rifle must weigh 12 pounds!)....

t.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

It is not about the gun, folks. Go buy your Purdy and then come on out and see how well you do against my Browning A5.

I totally agree...I have one of the original belgium production 20s that was my grandfathers and it is my favorite...Well other than my dads featherweight A5.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by t951

So, as a person that enjoys target shooting what is a good shotgun to get for the $$. I have an 870 that is reliable and decent, but looks inexpensive. What is a good one for the money.....I don't mind real old and needing love.t.

There are any number of really nice old used shotguns for under 1K.

A lot depends on your plans and preferences. I own a Winchester Model 12 pump action that my Dad first owned. Great gun. I also have a Belguim A5 that I bought used from gunbroker.com years ago.

I prefer the A5 for duck and geese but use the Model 12 for dove.

The real issue is how well the gun fits you. I recommend fining a reputable gun store that knows how to fit a gun to you. I shot a friends A5 for a few days before I was comfortable that the gun was right for me.

This thread makes me wish I needed another shotgun

[berettafan]

Fit (stock) and balance make a shotgun shoot well.

Careful fitting of the action (or replaceable bits as on many better fixed breech guns) make for a longer lasting gun.

Hand engraving and choice wood make for a prettier gun.

The first two are important (#1 being mandatory) the third is where you spend lots and lots of extra dough. You can get the first 2 items for around $2k or even less (talking o/u's and sxs) with new guns. $$ spent beyond that is, IMO, all about looks.

No matter what shotgun you are shooting the powder smells yummy and there is no more gratifying sight than a bird cleanly folded or a clay turning to powder.

[berettafan]

For semi-autos (assault weapons for any liberals reading ) #1 is stock fit and balance but #2 is a reliable cycling system. To that end there are benelli's (no gas) and berettas (gas) and A5 type actions (NLA IIRC). EVERYBODY else (barring those who use the benelli recoil action system) is just making excuses.

One other important factor for those that actually use their semi-autos is ease of cleaning and frequency required. The two B's win again.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

It is not about the gun, folks. Go buy your Purdy and then come on out and see how well you do against my Browning A5.

Actually, in the context of my buddy's Perazzi, I would have to disagree. But not for the reasons you might be thinking.

Granted, if the gun fits properly (we'll assume it does for the sake of discussion), one would think we could do as well with, say, the trusty 870 as some fancy big dollar gun. Most of us probably would, me included.

But what happens with a guy like my buddy, and his fancy Perazzi, is that they get to know one another. I know the thing has well over 100,000 rounds through it. That is actually not all that much in the world of competive trap. There are guys that will do that in a couple of years. Doing all of this shooting with the same gun, not several "just like it", breeds a familiarity that we could never achieve with lesser guns. They wear out too fast. Yeah, we might replace them with the same model, but it is still a different gun. Subtly, but none the less different.

So, in the context of a high end gun like my buddy's Perazzi, its sheer durability is what makes the difference. Only if you shoot it enough to take advantage of that, however. Most guys that spend that kind of scratch on that kind of "plain" high end gun do so just for that reason. One Perazzi in a lifetime is cheaper than a couple 870's a year for that lifetime. And I sure as hell wouldn't make much of a wager with some old fart with and old Perazzi with all the bluing worn off...

[targa911S]

All here that have given opinions are correct. It's about what you want to spend. Like anything else. Are you getting a better gun? I'm not sure. I think you reach the point of diminishing return on your money. Somewhere in the price quality stops and art takes over. Anybody see the German rifle in The Double Gun Journal this isssue? WAY over the top, but a WOW non the less.

Hugh Hefners H&H

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Actually, in the context of my buddy's Perazzi, I would have to disagree. But not for the reasons you might be thinking...snip

I could not agree more...again, I lease out a duck blind on my property and see a broad cross section of hunters. Your buddy is the exception and no doubt has a feel for the quality of his weapon.

I am also a complete supposter of folks spending their own money as they see fit, including high end shotguns.

[tabs]

This is on the way...A L C Smith SB Trap gun. Rare with 1266 units built from 1917 to 1950.




Also have this LC Smith Field Grade 12 GA for sale at $950 circa 1947, which is a give away price for the condition. Blue is 98%, Case is nearly 100%, Wood is at 90%. Mostly flking of varnish, one small repair in the wood on the forearm, expertly done. 2 small cracks in the wood behind the locks (common occurance). 30 inch Barrels, Full and Mod. Gun has been shot very little and is still stiff to open. Perfect Bores. This is a Fulton NY made gun, made after Marlin bought the company in 1945 and continued production in the old factory till 1950 when the factory floor collapsed. After that production basically ceased.

[dhoward]

Originally Posted by targa911S

All here that have given opinions are correct. It's about what you want to spend. Like anything else. Are you getting a better gun? I'm not sure. I think you reach the point of diminishing return on your money. Somewhere in the price quality stops and art takes over. Anybody see the German rifle in The Double Gun Journal this isssue? WAY over the top, but a WOW non the less.

Hugh Hefners H&H

Are you CRAZY?
There's titties on that gun.
Guns AND titties? Oh Lord, someone's BOUND to be offended.
Nice knowin' ya, Targ...

[VincentVega]

Tabs - where can I find something like that? I'm looking for a trap/skeet gun and would rather buy a 'nicer' older gun than a new ~$1500 one. I've looking on gunbroker, but dont know enough to bid on the right piece.