That's not a very nice way to describe the Bush administration...

I agree with you 100%! I had friend that bought a lawn mower at Costco and bent the crankshaft by hitting a old clothes line pole in the ground! He had it for over a year and took it back and they offered him a full refund or a mower that they currently had in stock, he took the refund. For some reason it irritates the crap out of me that he took it back! It's not Costco's fault for the crankshaft.... To me that's abusing the return policy!

How can one "abuse" a policy by honestly using the policy?

If Costco sells me a camera, and says "If it ever breaks, bring it back," I'm bringing it back when it breaks.

That's their policy, they came up with it, they invite you to use it. No problem. They are not idiots (Costco is uber-smart and successful), and their policies are designed to make them money in the long run.

Their return policy was no exception. It was well known and helped to build up the company and get paying members. Also, the person who buys a membership, and buys a $300 camera, also probably buys thousands of $$ of other stuff during the year. And, even on out of warranty, old stuff, they still got money back from the mfr. Who gladly paid it to be a Costco vendor. That's the free market at work.

Costco knows what they are doing. No one needs to feel bad by honestly availing themselves of Costco's policies.

(That being said, there was a lot of real abuse, IMO because the policy was "crazy" lenient. They often didn't even require a receipt! People would bring in old junk they didn't even buy at Costco).

the, I liken it to an honor system. Costco is betting that their customers actually have a conscience and will do the right thing. If everyone did what you did, all the time, Costco would be out of business in about one day flat.

Of interesting note, the company I work for sells ONLY 100% made in America products. The aluminum is American, the assembly is done in America, it's an American company. The machining is done in America. Once they got a shipment of Chinese aluminum, and refused it, then dropped that vendor. They were furious that the vendor would ever consider giving them inferior metal for their products.

Maybe if this "weak dollar" lasts for long enough, manufacturing will return to America? Or am I dreaming?

face it: some people will take advantage of any situation regardless of the circumstance. Others have a slightly different moral compass. It'll all come to fruition in the next life ;)

I'd be personally embarrassed to take something back after 3 years. I don't care what their "policy" is...to me it is wrong according to my internal policies. ymmv.

One thing I would like to point out about the falure of electronics is that a large percentage of them are failing due to the use of LEAD FREE SOLDER.

Thank the EU and RoHS for that.

Sorry, but that's a load of bunk.

what does your company make?

Yes, although I have less of a problem with that. The box actually says "made in the U.S." though. I'll take a picture of it later if I think of it. Their U.S. HQ is in Georgia I believe, and I'm pretty sure that's where the literature said the assembly took place.

Even the DeWalt one was "Made in China". I couldn't friggin' believe it. The Makita was the only one in the entire selection at Home Despot that wasn't "Made in China". Scary.

We make archery accessories; sights, arrow rests, quivers, and recently we're making shotgun sights, though they are plastic, no metal (except for a small mount on one or two versions of the sight).

I started to obsess about the issue of quality. So I did a quick google search of the phrase "unconditional lifetime guarantee" and " no questions asked"... I got surprisingly few results...(note, I could not find any sort of super-unconditional language at Snap-On or FACAM or Craftsman - even though I don't doubt they replace tools with no questions asked)...

http://www.koss.com/koss/kossweb.nsf/warrrepair2?openform

Stereophones that were purchased after July of 1989 are covered by our No-Questions-Asked Lifetime warranty.

http://www.pelicanproducts.us/Termsaspx.html

All Pelican Hard Cases are backed by an unconditional lifetime guarantee. Pelican guarantees all products against breakage and defects in workmanship. This guarantee does not cover shark bite, bear attack, or children under 5. To return your product on warranty, contact Pelican directly at 1-800-473-5422 (310-326-4700 inside CA) for a return authorization.

(emphasis added by me)

http://www.bondhus.com/features/warranty/body-0.htm

All Bondhus® products are guaranteed for life. If you are not happy with a Bondhus® tool - for any reason - simply return it. A replacement will be shipped right out at no cost - no hassles, no questions asked!

http://www.cutco.com/customer/guarantee.jsp

If at any time you are not completely satisfied with the performance of your CUTCO product, we will correct the problem or replace the product. Simply send the product with an explanatory note to the address below.

http://www.hammacher.com/order/ret_exch.asp?promo=LifetimeGuarantee

Should any product fail to meet your expectations, for any reason, simply return it with proof of purchase. We will replace it, refund the cost of the item less shipping and service fees, or credit your credit card, depending on your original payment method.

http://www.solutions.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=135&path=1%2C3%2 C125%2C135

Every product is backed by our Unconditional Lifetime Guarantee, you must be 100% satisfied with everything you purchase from us. If you are ever unhappy with a Solutions product for any reason we promise to cheerfully replace it or refund your money. The choice is yours! Unlike others, our unconditional guarantee truly has no limits - no questions asked.

http://www.otterbox.com/services/customer_service/#policyGuarantee

Here at Otter Products, LLC we have an unconditional lifetime guarantee. If at any time your protective OtterBox becomes faulty, we will replace it for you. We guarantee it for life! No questions. No hassles. It’s easy to stand behind our products with a lifetime warranty because we are confident that they will last a lifetime! Please see Otter Products, LLC Lifetime warranty for more details.

http://www.mountaintrailbaskets.com/FAQ.html

"Mountain Trails is the only domestic company that offers an unconditional lifetime guarantee. If your basket should ever become damaged, we'll repair OR replace it - whichever is necessary - at no cost to you other than shipping. For over 20 years, we've backed our promise to our loyal customers. Ship your basket to us with your name and address and a phone number to contact so we can contact you. Please ship to Mountain Trails Baskets RR 1 Box 102 Templeton,PA 16259

http://www.greatpooltables.com/

We offer our exclusive unconditional lifetime guarantee on all tables - if the slate on your table ever breaks or cracks for any reason, including misuse or abuse, we will replace it free of charge for the life of your table, no questions asked!

http://www.premiumtufflock.com/home.htm

We are proud to manufacture the finest collars and leashes available on the market - and to back it up with an UNCONDITIONAL LIFETIME GUARANTEE. Any damaged item is replaced, no questions asked - even if a dog chews it in two!

https://www.groommate.com/information.php?mID=5

Every nose hair trimmer offered at groommate.com is backed by an unconditional, lifetime guarantee. If at any time your nose hair trimmer fails to meet with your complete satisfaction, simply return it to us at the address shown here for your choice of a full refund or a new trimmer.

I believe Nordstroms and Needless-Markup offer an unconditional, no questions asked return policy as well. In fact on a news show Nordstroms offered a refund for a shirt purchased from another store just to keep the customer (undercover reporter) happy.

Chinese produced goods will improve in quality, it is inevitable, especially when their customers demand it.

When that happens we will really have to worry about our ability to compete.

In the meantime, I prefer my shoes Italian, watches Swiss, cars German or Japaneses, guns German, art Chinese, swords Japanese and food American. Clothes I do not really care. Electronics I could not really do much about.

Even when/if the quality comes up, I'll look for ways to avoid buying their products. I am THAT opposed to their governmental policies and their record on human rights.

Jansport (makes backpacks) is another great company that stands behind their products with an unconditional "no questions asked" guarantee. I once returned a backpack where the zipper had failed and come apart after several years and many, many pounds toted in both undergraduate and grad school. They replaced it no questions asked. The replacement backpack finally started coming apart (I stupidly ran over it once with my 951 - don't ask). Although I COULD return it and I'm sure they'd replace it, I can't see it in myself to do that. I'll pay full-price for a new one.

I bought a Samsung DLP TV from Costco. Just after the year warranty expired the TV developed a problem it kept turning itself off. The problem was a faulty circuit Board. I called Samsung, they extended the warranty by a couple of months and sent a technician to fix the thing at no cost. It has worked properly since then.

The rich don't buy normal cell phones. They buy Vertus. And Vertu will helicopter in a replacement for you if that is what it takes to keep you happy!

The Chinese are an internal looking society. everything they do is based upon what is good for the internal development of China. Their goal is to be able to feed everyone, and raise the standard of living from abject poverty levels. To do this they need to industrialize at any cost. They are coming from over a hundred years of western exploitation and having nothing to pulling themselves up by their bootstraps to achieve something. China only becomes aware of the outside world when it will effect China and its program of internal development. China does not follow the western model of wanting to conquer the world.

Tabs is a man of......come on come on you all know...

My Redwing boots...27 years old

My McIntosh and JBL Stereo equipment...30 years old

My Salvatore Espresso maker... only 4 years old.
previous Krups.. 10.5 years

My Ford 150....9.5 years old.

My Sony 20" TV...21 years old

My Sony 13" TV....20 years old

Digital Clock by Bedside...30 years old

Sharp Fax machine....15.5 years old

911 Porsche...39 years old

GE Dryer...20.5 years old

Sears Washing Machine....11.5 years old

GE Refrigerator...17.5 years old

Kodak Digital Camera...6.5 years old

Telephone by Bedside...26 years old

Guest Bedroom furniture...90 years old..Grandmas...

Salt Shaker...alumimum...90 years old..GM's

Lamps...58 years old....Gradmas & Mothers throw aways.

Chinese Rosewood Bedroom furniture...22 years old

All other major furniture pieces..17 years old

Pots and Pans..Revere Ware..60 years old with some newer pieces

All Clad pots and pans...7.5 years old.

Toaster..$7 Walmart...6.5 years
previous one 30 years

My previous TV was a Sony 32" XBR...15 years...

Previous Ford Ranger 13 years

YO HO HO...My Salvatore Espresso...is made in Solvang, CA USA...BABY...HAND BUILT by a little old Itie fellow...Nothing Beats Quality..and its used everyday...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1199270823.jpg

My father in law gave us a Christmas tree stand 2 years ago. $7.99 and "made in china" sheepishly tagged to its underside. After he left I said to my wife "this this is a fking curse, and we should just throw it away now and save ourselves the grief." Of course, Mrs Notfarnow thought I was being an ungrateful pr!ck, and we used it.

This year, when I was putting the tree up I cursed it again, and was scolded again.

And so on Christmas Eve this year, I was laying on the couch with my bride and two dogs, a roaring fire in the fireplace and 3 rum and eggnogs under my belt. It was with a certain amount of glee that I watched the Christmas tree teeter, then collapse. I didn't say "I told you so", I just giggled.

It wasn't a Christmas tree stand at all, it was an imitation Christmas tree stand. It was made to look like something that would hold up a tree, but not actually perform the task for which it was purchased.

Tabs is pretty much right about China - and living by example.

We all complain about stuff made in China - and then what do we do? Go to Walmart and buy more!

Where ever stuff is made - there is a strong case for buying quailty. Nothing is more of a waste of money and resources than stuff that does not last.

But if you think we have a problem with illegals now - try making in the USA all the consumer goods we use..

I actively try to purchase from 1st world nations, with the USA getting first crack at it. We bought a steam iron that was made in Germany. Every other one we saw was made in China. More recently, we tried to buy a toaster oven, and none are made outside of China. Not happy about that.

Walmart is only good for buying motor oil.

I think you are confused about which president lobbied for and obtained entrance to the WTO for China, then granted them "most-favored nation" status.

What brand? I am in the market for shotgun sights, I would prefer some made in the U.S.

Interesting. We have been through more made-in-germany Rowenta irons in this household. Probably one per year for the past 10 years. Most if not all were returned because of defects.....mostly broken steam actuators and power cord connections. We put up with it because when they work they perform better than any other consumer grade counterpart. (Some of the best commercial irons are Japanese)

FWIW, Rowenta manufactures products in Mexico as well.

Rick, our Rowenta is still less than a year old. I'm a bit nervous now after hearing about your experience. I'll keep my fingers crossed. :)

Hopefully you purchased at a place that has a liberal return policy. If you find yourself wiggling the power cord to get the iron to power up then return immediately. Apparently the stress shorts out the wires at the plug (once in my hand!) and the electrical contacts at the base foul up. Maybe the latest examples have improved.

That is a very astute observation. Historically, the Chinese did not care much about conquering the world, most of their expeditions have been about trade, not conquest or offering salvation.

It was conquered twice in its history, once by Mongolians and the second by Manchurians, both times the conquerers annexed their own countries and ultimately became Chinese themselves.

I remember years ago when tools were expensive compared to todays standards. I remember my dad trading a .38 for a floor jack. I thought it was a bad trade at the time. It's lasted without fail for 25 years now and was made in the USA.
I reflected on this recently when my new, made in china floor jack failed during an engine install.

Historically true, although I disagree that China has no interest in larger conquest based on two glaring observations:

1. Chinese imperialism - the "one China" policy that dates back to the invasion of Tibet and other autonomous regions in 1949 and more recently the flak over Taiwan. The Chinese have demonstrated a relentless desire to forcibly conquer any area they deem to have been "part of China" in the past. Where does this logic end exactly? Migrants from that area crossed the Bering land bridge and settled the Americas. Does that mean all of the Americas are therefore "part of China"? If you're the Chinese government, you could certainly use that kind of logic to your advantage, couldn't you?

Do you really think their current holdings (plus Taiwan) would slake their lust for conquest and control? C'mon. The government there is ALL about control, centralized power and keeping things closed down. If there's one thing a control freak wants, it's a broader scope of control and authority. . . A little common sense here. . .

2. The stated agenda by Marx (and later by Mao) that communist control of the entire world was an eventual goal. Has this suddenly just "gone away" overnight?



Can we really afford to sit back, hand over control of our own country to a foreign power and simply hope that they'll choose not to destroy us with it? That's what the masses are doing.

It seems utterly foolhardy and reckless. I'm not trying to be xenophobic here, but I have a very hard time trusting a government that seems so reckless in pursuing its own goals and agendas, and which has such a deplorable record of treating its own citizens.

Want to have trade? Fine. Implement a 1:1 trade restriction. For every $ that goes to China, $1 comes back to the U.S. in terms of U.S. products bought by them. And I don't mean military hardware either. China is the LAST country I'd be wanting to sell military technology to! Isolationist? Anti-"free-trade"? Yes. Fine. It'll fix the problem.

#1 - Tibet is a sad situation, mostly diven by fear of India - I think. Taiwan, well nobody is shooting yet. They are all too busy making money., The Americas as "part of China" - crazy logic indeed.

#2 - They are less marxist than a few city governments around the US. It is a way to keep the peace and remain in control. Yes, it has "gone away". Ask Castro.

Otherwise, how is China going to buy oil? From us? No, we buy consumer goods and they in turn buy oil, and the folks that sell oil buy all kinds of things. And around it goes. A 1:1 trade balance is never gonna work..

The DELL servers seem to actually be pretty good these days, especially for the price point they are at. I remember a few years back, they didn't have a great reputation; but, like I said, these days they seem to do pretty well.

Completely agree on the new Motorola stuff, quite horrible. It didn't always used to be that way, but over time I guess the almighty bottom line won over quality and dependability. They've also sold basically all their other divisions; now about 85% of their business is cell phones. I hear just the keypad for the Razr series of phones is actually very good, but the other bits are suck-tastic. As an aside, all the text messaging stuff runs on Motorola software. Oh yea, that 8420 minicomputer I had? So old it was running UNIX System 5 Release 4 (SVR4)! Awesome.

After years of toying with all manners of computers, with varying degrees of age, brokeness, and so on, I'm now much more willing to pay for reliability and quality over outright speed.

Yea, I deal with some of those city/county governments regularly. I know exactly what you mean. . .

Castro has been an irrelevant blowhard for the last 30 years.

China has big oil agreements with Iran and Russia right now, that I agree with. If it all just "goes around", then why is more and more investment in the U.S. going to China? That's the part I'm most concerned about. When we start bartering off our kids' future in the name of cheaper iPods, it's very disingenuous to them. I don't see the U.S. buying investment stake in much of the ROW, but I certainly see the ROW taking bigger and bigger bites of the U.S.

I do not trust China's motives. Not for a second. (you can cue up that Monty Python song about them being "cute and cuddly" if you want though.) :)

The outright bigotry on this thread leaves me speechless (and that says something!). Shoddy products are shoddy products where ever they're made. There isn't anything innate in China that means that you're getting sloppy workmanship, nor anything special about "Made in the US" that means that you're getting excellent quality. If there was, none of us would be driving "Foreign" cars. Having been to China and Malaysia, and having spent time with people who've been to factories in the Philippines and Korea, I don't see anything that suggests that in general the workers in China are being treated any worse then in those countries.

The responsibility lies with the company who's name is on the product. If they allow crap through in order to save a buck, that's their fault. There are some companies making quality products in China, and some companies making crap in the US.

When did they let you out of your rubber room? Hey Lubby ya got some of those little pills for this guy? Geezus you got this a$$ backwards. The Chinese crossed the Yalu River into N Korea in 1950, because they were afraid of losing the power generating dams on that river.

Tibet and Taiwan...They consider that those are part of China, as having once been part of China...Taiwan is a cash cow...they want the GNP that Taiwan produces. Taiwan is a hugh investor in the mainland. The Chinks hope that in time the distinction between Taiwan and the mainland disappears and they just naturally become one. Only when Taiwan threatens to formally become a nation do the mainlanders rattle the saber.

The Chicoms are Chinese FIRST and commies 2nd...so any analogy you make is flawed at the conceptual level.

As Alf said everybody who has ever taken over China became Chinese and the same is true for the Communists. YOu now truly see the Communist system has adapted to being Chinese.

That is an interesting insight, I never thought of it that way. Come to think of it the ChiCom system has become a sort of democratic imperialism with a rotating emperor. It is basically a totalitarian government with a free market economy, just like the Chinese were for most of its 3000+ year history.

The China issue is very complicated and tricky. China is a rival and a threat to us (the USA), also a partner and a benefit for us.

Just a couple things that are important, when thinking about this -

China faces huge economic, social, resource, and environmental challenges to lift itself from a poor country to a rich one. Demographics mean it has a fairly short time window to do this, before the population ages too far. If China doesn't become a high-tech, rich country in about 3 decades, it will be a disaster as the average age climbs past 50 and retirees far outnumber workers. For more on the demographic issue, see http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php?aid=40

China has a longer history than almost any other civilization/culture, but for much of that history it was torn by civil war, a patchwork of warring fiefs, invaded by neighbors, or otherwise unstable. The transitions between dynasties was not orderly, it was usually accomplished by assassination, war, treachery, and revolt. Any central government in China knows the long precedent for Chinese central governments to be violently brought down.

China is rather poor in natural resources, relative to its population and growth. The country is no longer self-sufficient in oil or metals, and the scale of its needs is large compared to the global supply of these things.

So you have a large country, under tremendous internal pressure to industrialize and develop, increasingly dependent on external resources to grow, a long history of past regimes that have been violently ended, and a limited amount of time before it becomes demographically weakened.

This might be a starting point for thinking about how the US should deal with China. We ultimately dealt with the USSR by escalating Cold War spending until they went bankrupt - at least, they were bankrupt until oil prices started rising. Is that a feasible approach to China? Is it the best approach? What are the other choices? Is there a win-win outcome, or only a win-lose outcome?

Basically, I think it would be interesting to step back and coldly think about our China options, in a strategic way.

Wailing on about shoddy tools and dirty fish is entertaining but I'm not convinced it gets you very far.

Very well put. We are barking up the wrong tree by complaining about China.