Originally Posted by sammyg2 (Post 3676527)

You could not afford a television that was completely made in the US (every component). It would probably cost about $100k.

Anyone here remember a thing from high school called history? Rumor has it that it tends to repeat itself.
After WWII Japan was trying to recover and develop some manufacturing. They were short of raw materials, so they made little tin toys and stuff, usually very fragile due to being stingy with materials.
Made in Japan was an insult. It meant crap, junk, not worth more than a few pennies.
Later, they got better. Slowly they increased quality, complexity, and now made in Japan means it is veprobably the best and very expensive. After they became a world manufacturing power, they also because a world consumer. Their standard of living increased, their labor cost increased, they became westernized.
In stepped Taiwan, South Korea, etc. They all did the same thing. They started making stuff cheap, and eventually it got better, then it got more expensive.

Now onto China. They made stuff like crap a decade ago. Their quality is getting better. It still has a way to go but it is well on the way.
Now why would anyone expect anything China to turn out any different than any other country?
They have more natural resources, they have more people, so it's on a grander scale but the same thing will happen. In another 10 years stuff made in China will be top quality, we will be more than happy to buy it if we can afford it, but we will be b!tching about cheap crap made in Turkey and Africa.

See, we drive this trend. It is our fault. we as consumers want affordable stuff. we will buy it if the price is low enough, but if it is really high we will not. Sure a few of us might say that we would pay a premium for one thing or another, but on average no one wants to pay alot for anything. Business responds to our wants. They give us what we ask for.
We want cheap, they give us cheap. It's always been that way.

I'd also say that most of us are victims of the sensationalistic media. They decided recently to go after "made in China". It was a way to get people fired up, and after all that is how they stay in business.
"China toys contain lead which kills our kids". Bah.
What they don't tell you is that the paint on those toys contain about .05% lead oxide. Big freaking deal. That's barely over the very conservative limit. They also don't tell you that my generation played with toys that contained 100 times more lead than those toys being recalled now. Big freaking deal. It is BS.
Don't let them control your minds.

Originally Posted by nostatic (Post 3678923)

http://www.mongrelmedia.com/films/ManufacturedLandscapes.html

Might give a little perspective on what China is dealing with internally and how the external world fits into it.

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 3678877)

The China issue is very complicated and tricky. China is a rival and a threat to us (the USA), also a partner and a benefit for us.

Just a couple things that are important, when thinking about this -

China faces huge economic, social, resource, and environmental challenges to lift itself from a poor country to a rich one. Demographics mean it has a fairly short time window to do this, before the population ages too far. If China doesn't become a high-tech, rich country in about 3 decades, it will be a disaster as the average age climbs past 50 and retirees far outnumber workers. For more on the demographic issue, see http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php?aid=40

China has a longer history than almost any other civilization/culture, but for much of that history it was torn by civil war, a patchwork of warring fiefs, invaded by neighbors, or otherwise unstable. The transitions between dynasties was not orderly, it was usually accomplished by assassination, war, treachery, and revolt. Any central government in China knows the long precedent for Chinese central governments to be violently brought down.

China is rather poor in natural resources, relative to its population and growth. The country is no longer self-sufficient in oil or metals, and the scale of its needs is large compared to the global supply of these things.

So you have a large country, under tremendous internal pressure to industrialize and develop, increasingly dependent on external resources to grow, a long history of past regimes that have been violently ended, and a limited amount of time before it becomes demographically weakened.

This might be a starting point for thinking about how the US should deal with China. We ultimately dealt with the USSR by escalating Cold War spending until they went bankrupt - at least, they were bankrupt until oil prices started rising. Is that a feasible approach to China? Is it the best approach? What are the other choices? Is there a win-win outcome, or only a win-lose outcome?

Basically, I think it would be interesting to step back and coldly think about our China options, in a strategic way.

Wailing on about shoddy tools and dirty fish is entertaining but I'm not convinced it gets you very far.

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 3679115)

Not getting sidetracked on the USSR, let's stick to the point which is China.

Did I correctly describe the path China is trying to follow, and the situation that is forcing it down that path? Or does China have other paths in mind - e.g. world conquest as Jeff fears?

What are the possible responses of the USA to China's desired path? Should we try to block it? Facilitate it? Re-direct it?

Would those responses be successful? How would they fit with the interests of the USA? What pressures is the USA under, and what path(s) do they compel us to take?

Of course there are other players. There are Europe, the USSR, the oil producing regions, and perhaps Japan.

Originally Posted by tabs (Post 3679135)

Well make up your frickin mind..your just like a woman....first you say lets not get sidtracked and before that even gets acknowledged you go right back and mention it again...what kind of bait and switch tactics are these anyway?

Lets figure out what you want to discuss before we go any further and get more confuzed.

Originally Posted by jluetjen (Post 3679164)

Good point Tabs. That's another natural resource that the Chinese are short on -- women! As jyl mentions, China's demographics are going to go upside down in a few years. If this were to happen gradually, that would be one thing. But a combination of 1 child families and the dearth of women is most likely going to mean that it's going to happen quickly. Given rampant self insurance in that country (or to put it differently, sons are insurance), there is going to be a sudden increase in medical costs at the same time when there will be a decrease in productive employees. The result I suspect will be a sharp increase in labor rates and a drop in productivity. Neither bodes will for the mid-term performance of their economy.

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 3679184)

The USA is in an interesting position. It is already a wealthy nation, but is demographically "younger" than other wealthy nations/regions like Japan and the EU. Meaning that our population is growing, not static/declining, and relatively younger, 37 y/o. The USA has substantial natural resources relative to its consumption, with the major exception of oil. We do have a sizeable national debt and ongoing deficit to manage. Our political system has been quite stable, since the Civil War anyway. We also have the pre-eminent military force.

It feels to me that the USA has various options, I don't think we are forced into only one choice.

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 3679190)

You can tell the difference between a sidenote (USSR) and the main point (China). If you don't want to play, then don't.

Originally Posted by tabs (Post 3679386)

Well will you make up your mind, first its China you want to talk about, then the USSR, then back to China then back to the USSR and now the USA...Do U have ADD or sumthin...geez your beginin to sound like Lubby on speed.

So stop yur changing the subject all the time. Lets just settle down and talk about one thing..Is it gong to be the USA, China or Russia? :)

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts (Post 3677750)

The comments from other posters about how their Apple equipment had failed quite rapidly (iPods in particular) made me think that you don't automatically get better quality just because you paid more.

-Wayne

Originally Posted by tabs (Post 3679379)

AHHH YES..we in the USA are younger, we have Mexicans and their myriads of children.... all to draw upon their sophisticated intellectual prowness. Why some of them even know about bank accounts what a bright futher for the USof A...they will make.

Originally Posted by frogger (Post 3676112)

Global Free TradeTM rocks! We export jobs and technology and import all our crap from China and Mexico. :)

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 3679558)

Not as ADD as tabs on a mild day . . .

I thought we were talking about what is the USA's best response to China?

So, what path(s) is China on? How should the USA respond, considering the path(s) that the USA wants to be on?

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts (Post 3679860)

...and we inflate the value of the dollar so much that our IOUs become worthless (a likely scenario).

Originally Posted by jluetjen (Post 3679940)

"Inflate"???? While the economic term is "inflation", what actually happens is the value of the dollar is decreased.

Originally Posted by lendaddy (Post 3679210)

I used to think that China will soon be faced with the burden of maintaining a middle class, but it likely won't happen. They have wave after wave/an endless supply of peasants to pull from. If the current crop gets uppity they'll just replace them with the next crop. The US and other developed countries did not have this "luxury" hence the formation of a middle class. The demands of our masses had to be met as we would have literally ran out of labor, this will not happen there(for several lifetimes anyway).

Originally Posted by nostatic (Post 3680354)

We don't hold a patent on economic development.

Originally Posted by Rearden (Post 3680367)

Even if we did, the Chinese would rip it off ;)

Originally Posted by tabs (Post 3679386)

...Do U have ADD or sumthin...

Originally Posted by ruf-porsche (Post 3680764)

If we should bolcott chinese products we should also bolcott german products.

For people railing on illegal MEXICAN why don't you rail on all those AMERICAN people that are adopting Chinese children? What's wrong with adopting an orphan from this country? Why do you have to travel halfway around the world to adopt a child?

Happy New Year

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB (Post 3681420)

Racism aside, German products are usually built to a higher standard than Chinese products and if they compete against an American product, it's not on a pricepoint.

Originally Posted by aap1966 (Post 3682113)

Chinese copies of alloy wheels are problematic at times.

Originally Posted by frogger (Post 3682166)

John, I'm less concerned about the quality than by the economic, social, and geopolitical implications of our trade, offshoring, and technology transfer with China/India/Mexico/etc. We can't continue on our current path without serious consequences.