Ron Paul snaps

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by NICKG

a central government institution..like say chinas?

They seem to be doing a better job at managing their money supply than we do.

[trader220]

So you want bigger central govt with more power over the people and business?

Let me ask you this also.. who do you think the Federal Reserve benefits most?

Also, no ones addressed the gold standard issue. When you contract the money supply to the n'th degree to have any meaningfull relationship bewteen gold and what ever US currency you plan to use what do you think its effects on the economy will be?

[trader220]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

They seem to be doing a better job at managing their money supply than we do.

China's govt is a form of communism. What makes you think they do a better job?

[Mule]

Originally Posted by trader220

Tell me if you get rid of the Federal reserve how do you plan to run the economy?? Should we withdraw from the global capital markets and become a barter society?

I see. The Fed keeps up afloat?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by trader220

China's govt is a form of communism. What makes you think they do a better job?

That country is FAR more capitalist than ours is. Their gov't. is authoritarian and only pretends to be communist. Because they don't have to stand for elections, they can do what makes good financial sense instead of what's popular.

[trader220]

70% of their country are peasants who still live in the interior and without for the most part electricity or running water how is that far more capitalist? I never said this country was a pure capitalist society, i don't believe one exists.

I will ask again does Ron Paul have a plan for getting rid of the Fed or what will happen if we went back on the gold standard? Do you want to be at the mercy of the worlds gold markets?

I understand we all have our opinions on what might work but since we're not running for President I was wondering if he has a solution to those issues not just an idea to get rid of the Fed and go on the gold standard.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

That country is FAR more capitalist than ours is. Their gov't. is authoritarian and only pretends to be communist. Because they don't have to stand for elections, they can do what makes good financial sense instead of what's popular.

Between your cheerleading Team Bush stealing powers and abrogating freedoms, we know you are pro-authoritarian government beyond your defense of China Rick.

But could you post your working definition of Capitalism? Or at least explain how the Chinese government having either total or partial ownership in virtually all industries as well sets prices across the board, is Capitalism. nothing in China is made or sold without some government intervention, whether through official party line or innate corruption.

And artificially suppressing the Yuan against the Dollar isn't really such a good example of Capitalism.

[trader220]

Shaun excellent post IMHO. I personally was just trying to get anyone at all to give me an example of a solution to the perceived problem without opening up to such a broad topic as China, but I believe you're spot on with your assessment of "capitalism", just my opinion of course. I think its easy to say "get rid of this" or "get rid of that" big deal, tell me whats the plan which is executable and better, or the transition wont kill you?

I mentioned the US is not a pure capitalist society but its a heck of a lot closer then China and I am not so sure most Americans could survive in a pure capitalist society, not that one exists in the macro world anywhere.

I am not trying to instigate anyone just having a discussion.

[Rick Lee]

China's gov't. is becoming less involved in their industry every day. But there's still a long way to go. Walk around any mid-large-size city (midsize there is like NYC here) and tell me you feel like you're in a communist country. There is more stuff for sale there than I've ever seen here even at Xmas time. It's an extremely vibrant economy and I never met anyone in a city there that wasn't 100% optimistic that things were only gonna get better. Yes, the countryside is a few hundred years behind the rest of the world. But the young people leaving there to go work in the cities will transform that in due time. It's a big place and it will take time. If you ever walked around in an eastern bloc country back in the 80's or before, that was real communism. Everyone was equally poor unless you were part of the political elite. I suspect China was a lot like that back before Deng started liberalizing the place. Lots of millionaires and middle class folks in today's China have nothing at all to do with politics. There is no welfare, no gov't-mandated retirement system like soc. sec. You're truly on your own there. If ours weren't a litigious welfare state, I think we'd be far better off. The only way we will beat China is by sending lawyers there to ruin the place.

[trader220]

Rick thats fine and I agree that they've made huge strides but the bottom line is the gov't still has its hands in everything and they're in a vastly different area on the economic curve then the US is. So employing their economic system here is not an option.

I will ask again... whats Ron Paul's plan for doing away with these institutions? "Joe Candidate wants to get rid of this, and Joe candidate wants to get rid of that. Joe Candidate wants to go back to the gold standard" is all well and good, tell us how that would happen or even have a shot of working in this global economy. Anyone can say the current system is not to their liking or say it does not benefit the country, tell me how something else would happen, and work better.

[Rick Lee]

Ok, I don't know Ron Paul specific plans for abolishing a lot of the things he says he wants to abolish. But as for federal agencies, my guess is he'll never get Congress to cooperate with him, so he'd just defund them by executive order. I think Clinton and Bush have both toyed with this idea since the SCOTUS killed the line item veto. It's a narrow reading of the law and I forget the specifics. But I don't see how else Ron Paul could, for example, kill the Dept. of Education. That dept. was created by Carter as a payback to the NEA for their support. And like all gov't. programs, they're not too hard to create, but they are impossible to end. Paul would have to just refuse to direct the Treasury to release funds for Dept. of Ed. I don't recall the exact manner in which the Fed. Reserve gets its authority. I guess they would always be free to set their discount rate at whatever they want it. But they'd need the cash to be able to lend at that rate. So I guess a Pres. Paul could technically defund the Fed too.

[trader220]

The Fed gets its cash from the member banks and they don't take capital from the federal govt. So you're sure they need to be gotten rid of but you don't know how they work? How bout something like to gold standard or even general trade? Who would take our new unit of currency?

When gold goes through the roof since the govt would have to acquire it to back this new unit of currency how would you prop up the domestic economy? How would you keep a handle on the new unit of currency when the gold market is free to do whatever it wants in the rest of the world? What about payment of our debt that already exists to other countries, there is not enough gold in the world to cover that?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

China's gov't. is becoming less involved in their industry every day. But there's still a long way to go. Walk around any mid-large-size city (midsize there is like NYC here) and tell me you feel like you're in a communist country. There is more stuff for sale there than I've ever seen here even at Xmas time. It's an extremely vibrant economy and I never met anyone in a city there that wasn't 100% optimistic that things were only gonna get better. Yes, the countryside is a few hundred years behind the rest of the world. But the young people leaving there to go work in the cities will transform that in due time. It's a big place and it will take time. If you ever walked around in an eastern bloc country back in the 80's or before, that was real communism. Everyone was equally poor unless you were part of the political elite. I suspect China was a lot like that back before Deng started liberalizing the place. Lots of millionaires and middle class folks in today's China have nothing at all to do with politics. There is no welfare, no gov't-mandated retirement system like soc. sec. You're truly on your own there. If ours weren't a litigious welfare state, I think we'd be far better off. The only way we will beat China is by sending lawyers there to ruin the place.

I'm sorry but this sounds like a lot of pie-in-the-sky, kumbaya, feel-good Liberal gobbilygook (sp).

"China's gov't. is becoming less involved in their industry every day."

Might as well say we'll have real election finance reform in this country. or perhaps Welfare recipients will all get jobs and start paying back their handouts.

But I don't think you made any case for China being even a little Capitalistic.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by trader220

The Fed gets its cash from the member banks and they don't take capital from the federal govt. So you're sure they need to be gotten rid of but you don't know how they work? How bout something like to gold standard or even general trade? Who would take our new unit of currency?

When gold goes through the roof since the govt would have to acquire it to back this new unit of currency how would you prop up the domestic economy? How would you keep a handle on the new unit of currency when the gold market is free to do whatever it wants in the rest of the world? What about payment of our debt that already exists to other countries, there is not enough gold in the world to cover that?

Hold on there partner. I never said I was sure the Fed needed to be abolished. Ron Paul said that. I merely stated how I thought he'd get it done.

[trader220]

Shaun there are some capitalist aspects of their economy for sure. I think we can agree on that, but in reality they're a communist country and at anytime they can pull the strings on whatever they like, hardly what anyone would call capitalistic.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I'm sorry but this sounds like a lot of pie-in-the-sky, kumbaya, feel-good Liberal gobbilygook (sp).

"China's gov't. is becoming less involved in their industry every day."

Might as well say we'll have real election finance reform in this country. or perhaps Welfare recipients will all get jobs and start paying back their handouts.

But I don't think you made any case for China being even a little Capitalistic.

Perhaps I should have, instead, asked for examples of how the U.S. is capitalistic and then contrasted that with China. I highly doubt any aspect of business in China is as highly regulated and taxed as it is here. I know the barriers to starting a business here vary from state to state, but they are immense (OSHA, EPA, payroll taxes, zoning, business license, lawyers, etc.). That stuff is either non-existant or greatly streamlined in China.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Hold on there partner. I never said I was sure the Fed needed to be abolished. Ron Paul said that. I merely stated how I thought he'd get it done.

Fair enough, I would love to see Ron Paul suggest we model after a Communist nation just for the laughs it would provide.

Choosing a communist solution to abolishing the FED is not plausible.

I ask again can anyone tell me what plan has been offered to replace the FED and get us on the gold standard?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by trader220

Shaun there are some capitalist aspects of their economy for sure. I think we can agree on that, but in reality they're a communist country and at anytime they can pull the strings on whatever they like, hardly what anyone would call capitalistic.

YES. That's the issue with a true communist government. They may have rule of law, but the government never loses in a battle with citizens and protection of private property and contract enforcement is questionable. I think it's largely the same here though. Anyone involved in the Kelo decision probably doesn't feel like our gov't. exists to protect private property.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Perhaps I should have, instead, asked for examples of how the U.S. is capitalistic and then contrasted that with China. I highly doubt any aspect of business in China is as highly regulated and taxed as it is here. I know the barriers to starting a business here vary from state to state, but they are immense (OSHA, EPA, payroll taxes, zoning, business license, lawyers, etc.). That stuff is either non-existent or greatly streamlined in China.

Really? try and implement an Internet business there or access the Internet there. I am not qualified to debate the barriers of entry into different businesses in China and what part their govt plays. I would expect the govt has no "rules" per se and they step in and out as they see fit, which is not particularly business friendly.

Again, I was not asking about China to begin with. Can someone tell me if there is a real plan in place to get rid of the FED and get on the gold standard? Its easy to say lets do it but is there anyone out there whose heard the plan that he wants to execute?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by trader220

Really? try and impliment an internet business there or access the internet there.

I've been on the Internet in probably 20 cities in China and buy plenty of stuff online from China directly. In fact, I'm even fairly active on a BBS similar to this one based in China and run by their largest newspaper. I never made the claim that they don't have online thought police. I've actually witnessed police there rifling through sign-on sheets at an Internet bar in Guangzhou. But apolitical Internet business and non-porn stuff is left alone there.