How many engineers?

[jsb944]

I (an ME) think many of you have nailed it.

I don't think it's about 'glamour' necessarily....it's about respect and money. What drive is there for a bright young kid to become an engineer over say...a doctor or lawyer? He or she will make far less (unless they choose to get their MBA after a masters) and have far less opportunity.

In addition...in the US we seem to want to funnel everyone toward being a manager...with that being the only way to earn a really nice living. Heck in my office (we are in the process of changing this) if you currently are a technical engineer...eg. you do the work...you are very limited in terms of salary growth....and once you get 'there'....that's it....done...no other career path or area to advance unless you want to manage.

I think when you add up level of effort and time to get thru your BS, get a masters and get your PE and then compare to a BA at school X and three hard years to get a JD and pass the bar......and then look at what your potential is in each of these paths....it's very obvious why we have SO many lawyers compared to Engineers.....heck we make lawyers like the franklin mint makes commemorative elvis coins.

The message we telegraph to young people is that if you want to work your ass off, have a well respected profession AND get the big buks/opportunity...be a lawyer or stock trader.

If you want to just work your ass off be an engineer.

By the way, I have on occasion been a speaker at several schools in similar courses as the one you mention. I absolutely love what I do...and although I don't have an MBA I have received incredible mentorship from our executives and from them, gained the tools I need to manage.....and therefore have advanced beyond 'drone'.

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by SlowToady

They aren't glamorous, most of the time aren't rich, and from what I can tell, usually lack any semblance of proper social skills. The last part mostly applies to the Mathematicians and Computer Scientists I know. Engineers, no offense intended, seem to be rather bland.

Q. What do engineers use for birth control?

A. Their personalities.

[einreb]

Originally Posted by SlowToady

In college, when you're at a party, it's not cool to say "I'm a math major" when a girls asks you.

Its never the answer. Its how you answer. Tuck you tail between your legs and say "I'm a math major" or stand up proud and say "International Business" will get you different reactions.

Alpha male math majors go on to build hedge funds or in the case of my math major undergrad brother in law are *McDreamy* neurosurgeons.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by PBH

Q. What do engineers use for birth control?

A. Their personalities.

There you go.

When I read the thread title "How many engineers?" I was expecting a thread of engineer jokes.

Best,

Kurt

[MotoSook]

Bernie, I'm the "McCreamy" of the engineering field....LOL! The wifey hates when I call myself McCreamy when she's watching "Grey's Anatomy."

[kstar]

[einreb]

An architect, an artist and an engineer were discussing whether it was better to spend time with the wife or a mistress. The architect said he enjoyed time with his wife, building a solid foundation for an enduring relationship. The artist said he enjoyed time with his mistress, because of the passion and mystery he found there. The engineer said, "I like both."

"Both?"

Engineer: "Yeah. If you have a wife and a mistress, they will each assume you are spending time with the other woman, and you can go to the lab and get some work done."

[Porsche_monkey]

Q: When does a person decide to become an engineer?
A: When he realizes he doesn't have the charisma to be an undertaker.

Q: How can you tell an extroverted engineer?
A: When he talks to you, he looks at your shoes instead of his own.

Q: Why did the engineers cross the road?
A: Because they looked in the file, and that's what they did last year.

Q: How do you drive an engineer completely insane?
A: Tie him to a chair, stand in front of him, and fold up a road map
the wrong way.

****************************************
To the optimist, the glass is half full... To the pessimist, the glass is half empty... To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be...
************************************************** **

You might be an engineer if:

Choosing between buying flowers for your wife and upgrading your RAM is
problem.

You take a cruise so you can go on a personal tour of the engine room.

In college, you thought Spring Break was metal fatigue failure.

The salespeople at the local computer store can't answer any of your
questions.

At an air show, you know how fast the skydivers are falling.

For your wife's birthday you gave her a new CD-ROM drive or a Palm Pilot.

You can quote scenes from any Monte Python movie.

You can type 70 words per minute but you can't read your own handwriting.

You comment to your wife that her straight hair is nice and parallel.

You sit backwards on Disney rides so you can see how they do the special
effects.

You have saved every power cord from all your broken appliances.

You have more friends on the Internet than in real life.

You know what http:// stands for.

You look forward to Christmas so you can put the kids toys together.

You see a good design, and have to change it.

You spent more on your calculator than you did on your wedding ring.

You still own a slide rule and know how to use it.

You think that people yawning around you are sleep deprived.

You window shop at Radio Shack.

Your laptop computer cost more than your car.

Your wife hasn't the foggiest idea of what you do at work.

You've already calculated how much you make per second.

You've tried to repair a $5 radio.


Sadly, most of these apply.

[einreb]

Originally Posted by PBH

You see a good design, and have to change it.

SOUK!

[stevepaa]

Originally Posted by PBH

Sadly, most of these apply.

yes indeed. just ask my wife.

[MotoSook]

Bernie..engineering is about making things better and more efficient!

[MotoSook]

ifastredsc: Las Cruces - New Mexico State U? I almost went there to finish my engineering degree, but the administrator I spoke to there kinda turned me off. (shrug)....

Anyhow, here are me comments to your original post (and some to address the other replies). I'm no expert and don't have any hard data, so take it for what is is, an internet post:

You can’t compare China’s growth to US or European growth. Thus their increase in the number of graduating engineering students, although an interesting statistic has to be carefully used. I don’t know anything about the Chinese engineering program, but I can say that they have a different way of doing business and engineering. Two vice-presidents of my former company spent some time with a group of Chinese engineers and plant operators. They came back with stories of engineering and construction practices that are no where near the sophistication of the US and European engineering practices.

But don’t count them out so early. The Asian mind is adaptive and quick (sorry I had to throw that in here ). The Chinese will come on strong and improve their engineering practices quickly. They are driven, if not by Communist task masters, by peer competition and a strong urge to better themselves socially and economically. They may someday acquire some of the western world’s engineering dollars, but I think there will always be a cultural curtain that prevents a big wave of engineering outsourcing to the Chinese, Indians or other countries.

We are currently outsourcing some of the engineering related tasks, such as drafting; however, I think once the economic benefit of outsourcing wears off and the difficulties in quality control become reality there will be a shift to pull back some of the outsourcing. I can foresee some a lot of difficulties in outsourcing the intellectual aspect of engineering. There is too much involved with good engineering to outsource at a high or large volume level.

For there to be a global engineering community that would cause me to worry about engineering outsourcing, there has to be a bigger leap in technological development to make communicating and interacting with overseas firms less painful. I can’t tell you how annoying and inefficient it is to teleconference and remotely interact with peers and clients within the US!

Something else to consider is that US population growth and economic growth are not proportional. Neither are population growth and the demand for engineers.

The above topic is far more complex and even a live round table discussion wouldn’t come close to satisfying the participants. Doing it on the web is more difficult.

Why are their more graduates from less demanding programs, such as Sports Journalism? There is likely a greater percentage of high school graduates entering college and choosing liberal degrees or other degrees that have not been the core college programs; whereas before one is more likely to go to college for the core programs like Law, Medicine, Engineering, Education, etc. I think it’s great that more and more students go to college, but going to college isn’t an automatic intelligence lottery jackpot! Some go to college seeking a dream career in media or some other less demanding field than engineering. Perhaps those students wouldn’t have gone to college 10 years ago, so the graduating numbers need to be understood when comparing them to engineering graduating numbers. That is just potentially one explanation.

As for students not sticking it out in engineering, the above may also be a factor. In past decades, you had to really want to be an engineer to consider going to engineering school. Nowadays, college isn’t as difficult to transition into as say 20 years ago. And perhaps with ease of transitions there are more applicants who are getting into engineering programs who wouldn’t have gotten into it before…or even considered it. As a result, they can’t complete the program or find they weren’t meant to be engineers and have other options.

Sure there are social and popular cultural factors as to why there has been a slow increase in the number of US engineering grads, but engineers will always be engineers. We don’t have glamorous jobs at times, and for the most part our profession is not as cool as some other professions. Hollywood won’t be coming out to tape a reality show about me and my engineering life anytime soon. Yet, they have made reality shows of chefs, hair stylists, musicians, etc. Should we be worried? Nah. If someone is going to be pulled into that kind of pop culture soup, let them, they would have dropped out of engineering school anyhow. If they end up at college getting a liberal degree, chances are they won’t be using that degree. If they do use that degree, they probably won’t have the security and opportunities that an engineering degree can provide.

Engineers can be cool, and engineers can make a lot of money. I’ve been out of school for less than 10 yrs, and I’m making a better living than probably 95% of the friends I had in college, which included students of all disciplines. I sure as heck didn’t have a hard time getting laid in college…even when my reply was “I’m an engineering major.”

Remember, not all lawyers and doctors or finance professionals make the top dollars. If you are to compare engineers to doctors and lawyers, consider that the engineer has at least a 3 yrs head start on earnings and 3 years less educational costs. (we only need a 4 yr degree to start on our career path) Then consider the hours that doctors and lawyers are committed to their jobs (think medical interns and new law associates). A 40-60 hr a week engineering job that pays $50K-$125K per year doesn’t seem so bad. Six figures for a good engineer these days is not out of the realm of possibility.

So much more…but I have to get back to work,


Mr. McCreamy Engineer

[TerryBPP]

The trick to making a good living in the engineering field is being the exact opposite of what you guys are describing as a engineer.

I am in the business end of the engineering field were I meet with clients, develop concepts, and deal new contracts. I spend very little time dealing with in depth calculations. In our consulting firm we have 10 engineers to sit in a room and crunch #'s and only one of me. Who's more valuable?

The trick is, developers do not want to talk to a real estate salesman about building a million $ project. They want to talk to a engineer that knows a project from the roots.

[911Rob]

Ha, Ha; some funny but fitting stuff posted here!

I can see the Chinese outputting more engineers than our Countries because of their educational disciplines. Face it, our kids today aren't being challenged enough to think.

I teach business courses at the high school and I show the kids how the math skills apply to everyday life after graduation. But no way to shake it, becoming an engineer takes some smarts; period. Even out of every 100 that do become engineers, how many really practise in the trade?

The Chinese society is poised for great educational results IMO.
I've got 5 kids and not one has taken to math in their school work?

I've never been able to figure out how to explain to the kids why they'll ever need the skills of solving a problem with 27 unkowns though?

[911Rob]

Originally Posted by TerryBPP

The trick to making a good living in the engineering field is being the exact opposite of what you guys are describing as a engineer.

I am in the business end of the engineering field were I meet with clients, develop concepts, and deal new contracts. I spend very little time dealing with in depth calculations. In our consulting firm we have 10 engineers to sit in a room and crunch #'s and only one of me. Who's more valuable?

The trick is, developers do not want to talk to a real estate salesman about building a million $ project. They want to talk to a engineer that knows a project from the roots.

Terry,
You make some great points here; but as an engineer with some of the basic personality flaws that result from being wired so; I have found a successful relationship by partnering with a top notch salesman. Great people person, could sell fridges to eskimos kinda guy. I provide all the details, he deals with the people. We have a great partnership and after 20 years of struggling to find this formula for success, I am very happy (if an engineer can be happy?)

Our clients love the services I provide (details baby, details); but it wouldn't happen without the likes of the front man.

Good points you make though, but I'm thinking you're less of an engineering personality than the sales personality?

[TerryBPP]

Originally Posted by 911Rob

Terry,
You make some great points here; but as an engineer with some of the basic personality flaws that result from being wired so; I have found a successful relationship by partnering with a top notch salesman. Great people person, could sell fridges to eskimos kinda guy. I provide all the details, he deals with the people. We have a great partnership and after 20 years of struggling to find this formula for success, I am very happy (if an engineer can be happy?)

Our clients love the services I provide (details baby, details); but it wouldn't happen without the likes of the front man.

Good points you make though, but I'm thinking you're less of an engineering personality than the sales personality?

I'd say less of a engineer personality but I do have a BS in CE from FSU and am a project manager for a CE consulting firm.

Don't get me wrong I can do almost any type of calculation/ program if need be but I find knowing a little about a lot benefits me more than a lot about a little.

[911Rob]

T,
There was a book I'd read years ago, it was a sequal publication; called the "E" something or other? Can't remember the title exactly and I passed it along to someone. It was a great book about entrepeneurs and personality types though.

The book explained in detail the 3 different personality types as they apply to business; well actually there were 4.......
1. Technical
2. Sales
3. Managerial
The fourth type was a person that had a combination of the 3; sounds like you have that Blessing? Was by far the greatest personality IMHO! You probably have a very rewarding career. Set the bar high and make some money buddy!!
Cheers

[911Rob]

This was the book; the "E myth"
Good read too.


LINK: http://www.amazon.com/E-Myth-Revisited-Small-Businesses-About/dp/0887307280/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201038989&sr=8-8

[David]

Years ago I was talking to a fellow coop student who is Chinese. He said when they walk into a freshman engineering class and it's all white americans they know they've got it made. Then he said when they walk into a senior engineering class and it's all white americans they drop the class. He said the Chinese have a better study ethic than the Americans so they'll get the better grades, but at the senior level the Americans study and they're smarter. Just repeating what he said.

I keep thinking about changing jobs, either going back to school for a JD which is very unlikely or becoming a manager. I got an offer the other day for 50% more than my current salary to manage a machine shop. Then I think about my job: six figures to work about 40 hours a week with no one to supervise and I realize I'm content where I am.

[p911dad]

Engineering degrees are like many things in this country, the supply is eventually governed by the needs of the marketplace. As the agriculture becomes more concentrated into fewer, larger farms, fewer farmers are required. Many everyday problems can be now solved with more concentrated technology that requires fewer actual degreed engineers. There are engineering firms that now have technicians taking the places of what PE's used to do(PE's still sign and stamp the plans after review). Some upstate colleges are actually reducing the engineering programs because of a lack of students. It is a curious situation. Students these days seem to be very career conscious and tend to pick occupations with growth possibilities. Maybe all we need is 70,000 degreed engineers..