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WI wide body · 02-05-2008, 06:53 PM

Why do virtually all of the NFL defensive coaching genius' appear to try to create a negative mis-match at the Corner Back position?

These guys get paid a fortune to coach a little boys game and yet over and over and over again they use 6 foot tall CB's to try to defend receivers who are sometimes 1/2 foot taller?

Is there some unwritten NFL rule that when receivers like T.O. or Burress or Moss or Larry Fitzgerald or Braylon Edwards or Antonio Gates or Brandon Marshall or Marques Colston go up against a DB that they must have a 4" to 7" height advantage?

The Packers Al Harris is probably one of the better "cover" CB's in the NFL. And he is also one of the bigger ones since he's over 6 foot tall. But if I had not been a Packer fan, it would have been comical to watch him trying to cover Owens and Burress and that big kid who plays for the Lions and Jerry Porter this season. They simply ate him up.

Are these coaches brain dead or what? Get some damn DB's who are at least close in size, speed, and strength to the guys they are trying to defend.

And then there is the exact opposite situation on why the offensive coaches don't take even more advantage of this nonsense but I won't even get into that right now.

Mule · 02-05-2008, 07:09 PM

Cornerback is about ability to react (change direction). For some reason those lanky guys don't do that as well. Hence the saying, corners are born not made. Gee, a guy like you didn't know this?

WI wide body · 02-05-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mule

Cornerback is about ability to react (change direction). For some reason those lanky guys don't do that as well. Hence the saying, corners are born not made. Gee, a guy like you didn't know this?

Why then do those "lanky" guys who play WR react so good?

Let me guess....you never played football at any level..right?

BRPORSCHE · 02-05-2008, 08:08 PM

It takes a whole different athlete to play Safety or Cornerback. It's just something they know how to do. Thats a lot of field to cover. Unlike the WR's they don't have a set route so they are constantly changing directions. Whereas, recievers are running a certain direction. I used to have the speed to be a fairly decent SS. I could never figure out how to manage the field though. I used to always let someone slip behind me.

I prefer being on the line, I was a DE. I like to instantly react to something and then go after the ball. I did not want to chase someone around, change directions, and then make the tackle.

ckissick · 02-05-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Why then do those "lanky" guys who play WR react so good?

Let me guess....you never played football at any level..right?

Wide receivers don't react. They make the first move, knowing what they are going to do. The corner has to react, as they don't know what the receiver is going to do. Smaller, faster guys can react better and keep tight coverage. It doesn't matter how tall the corner is; if he's sitting on his arse 20 yards away, the receiver's going to get the ball.

WI wide body · 02-05-2008, 08:17 PM

Did you guys ever hear the term "cover corner"? That's what most of the man to man CB's play. That means that the CB plays a bump at the line before the receiver goes 5 yards.

As for the CB being "on his arse"....that's exactly what happens when a 230 pounder like T.O. is going up against a 190 pound CB and tries to bump him!

WI wide body · 02-05-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRPORSCHE

It takes a whole different athlete to play Safety or Cornerback. It's just something they know how to do. Thats a lot of field to cover. Unlike the WR's they don't have a set route so they are constantly changing directions. Whereas, recievers are running a certain direction. I used to have the speed to be a fairly decent SS. I could never figure out how to manage the field though. I used to always let someone slip behind me.

I prefer being on the line, I was a DE. I like to instantly react to something and then go after the ball. I did not want to chase someone around, change directions, and then make the tackle.

Of course every player has to learn his position and some are better at certain things than others. But there is no logical reason that ALL the CB's have to be small and fast when many of the WR's are now big, tall, and fast.

Terrell Owens could probably be without a doubt one of THE top CB's simply because of his size, speed, and height. The difference between him and Champ Bailey is that they both would be great CB's except that TO would have a 6 inch reach advantage on every high pass.

Mule · 02-06-2008, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Why then do those "lanky" guys who play WR react so good?

Let me guess....you never played football at any level..right?

Rev up your dictionary & check the difference between act and react.

Red Baron · 02-06-2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Why then do those "lanky" guys who play WR react so good?

Let me guess....you never played football at any level..right?

WR run in straight lines and cut/break the route moving forward. For the corner position, it's all about the back pedal and being able to turn the hips and swivel off of the back pedal. A lower center of gravity makes someone naturally more adept at doing so. A few tall guys can do so, Bobby Taylor comes to mind, but typicaly shorter guys with great hips make better corners because they are more adept at transitioning from the back pedal off the break.

cmccuist · 02-06-2008, 07:29 AM

Cornerbacks are generally regarded as the best athletes in professional sports. They typically have a 35"-40" vertical, squat 500 lbs, have 4.5 40 speed and weigh in at 190-200 lbs.

So they're fast and strong. They have to stay with super fast WR's sometimes have to tackle 250 lb running backs.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Agreed. They have perhaps the most overall physically demanding job in the game. They need agility, speed, power and endurance. They make it look easy, so that a bunch of ignorant critics on the Internet can assume it's an "easy job". That's only more of a testimony to how good those guys are.

Mule · 02-06-2008, 07:59 AM

You would think that if none of the $1million + guys paid to figure this stuff out in the NFL DID, and WIWB DID, there's a fat check waiting for him somewhere. The cream rises to the top!

WI wide body · 02-06-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist

Cornerbacks are generally regarded as the best athletes in professional sports. They typically have a 35"-40" vertical, squat 500 lbs, have 4.5 40 speed and weigh in at 190-200 lbs.

So they're fast and strong. They have to stay with super fast WR's sometimes have to tackle 250 lb running backs.

And which of those things could T.O. not do???

Except that he's 30 or 40 pounds heavier and probably has a 6" to 10" wingspan advantage.

I understand what most of you guys (except Mule, he makes no sense and is probably still trying to figure out how many Super Bowls Bart Starr won) are saying but you are offering no real reasons. Saying that DB's have to be "great athletes...fast...be able to change direction...react...most difficult position" does not explain why the similarly talented athletes that they are trying to defend often have the same specs except that they are bigger, stronger, taller, along with a huge reach advantage.

Convince me otherwise with logical and reasonable examples.

Mule · 02-06-2008, 10:35 AM

Look up physics and momentum and back pedal. This may help.

Red Baron · 02-06-2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WI wide body

And which of those things could T.O. not do???

Except that he's 30 or 40 pounds heavier and probably has a 6" to 10" wingspan advantage.

I understand what most of you guys (except Mule, he makes no sense and is probably still trying to figure out how many Super Bowls Bart Starr won) are saying but you are offering no real reasons. Saying that DB's have to be "great athletes...fast...be able to change direction...react...most difficult position" does not explain why the similarly talented athletes that they are trying to defend often have the same specs except that they are bigger, stronger, taller, along with a huge reach advantage.

Convince me otherwise with logical and reasonable examples.

Could it be because they can't catch as well as guys playing WR? Also the ability to get off the jam at the line of scrimmage is an art in itself. The longer more lanky guy would have a distinct advantage in most cases. Steve Smith/ Andre Rison and some smaller WR can get off the jam pretty well however typically it's your guys like Moss/Owens/Jimmy Smith that are known for being hard to jam at the line of scrimmage.

And while T.O could run jump tackle etc. I would bet he doesn't transition off the back pedal as well as a top shelf corner.

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

I have to agree with Widebody. The disparity is causing teams to lose games, plain and simple. The other glaring problem I see with diminutive CB's is found in run support. I can't count the number of times a corner has been pancaked by even a medium sized back. Most of them give a half-hearted dive at the back's feet as he rolls by. The larger receiver have no fear of a bump and run coverage, either. If CB's were larger, they could intimidate more receivers and force them to run poorer routes. That would translate into more pressure on QB's, and more wins.

BRPORSCHE · 02-06-2008, 10:53 AM

WI,
This is a tough question. The answer isn't as straight cut as I want it to be, but I'll try to be as clear as possible. The lower Center of Gravity definitely plays a role. Corners and saftey's are constantly changing direction, reacting to what the WR is doing. They are running a sub 4.5 at the corner. Now, the corner is running a sub 4.5 backwards for the first ten yards before they can turn their hips and chase. It's that split second reaction time that makes them that seperates the so-so collegiate from the pro.

I was reading on ESPN this week that their are very few top defensive backfield positions. You can drop a DE to be an outside LB, or possibly even a nickel back. Now that DE will still be a very productive LB, since you only moved his position back 3-4 yards. Now to make him a nickel requires a lot of skill. The tall lanky DE's never get picked. It's always the slightly smaller and more agile ones. They have to be able to take a hit, and be able to accurately place a hit in open field. Thats where the low CG comes into play. These guys have to turn on a dime.

This still doesn't answer your question about the WR's though. I was never one, never had the hands for it. Look up LaRon Landry. I personally think he is the best saftey in the NFL. These guys have to be able to react to the initial hit from the WR, start running, maybe to even catch up, and then make the tackle in open field. You don't need height for any of this. Then if your really good you get to go head hunting. Possibly a saftey blitz.

BRPORSCHE · 02-06-2008, 10:59 AM

Found it! Ok this article is written for the guys coming out of High School right now.

From ESPN.com

This class as a whole has been intriguing. Every year, one or two positions rise or fall in terms of depth and talent, and in 2008, the massive crop of wide receivers will leave just about every team in the top 25 classes with two premier playmakers on the perimeter. Conversely, this class is not strong at cornerback, which always is the toughest position to evaluate and has "converts" from other positions.

Big, tall wide receivers always have been popular choices, but the newest trend is recruiting undersized defensive ends and linebackers, with which this class is loaded. Outside linebacker Arthur Brown (Wichita, Kan./East) is 210 pounds if he is lucky, and OLB Sean Spence (Miami/Northwestern) weighs in at about 200 pounds on a good day. Florida commit defensive end William Green (Birmingham, Ala./Spain Park) is about 215 pounds, and Alabama commit DE Courtney Upshaw (Eufaula, Ala.) is about 220 pounds.

The reason for this shift in philosophy is the influence of the spread offense that dominates the college football landscape; speed, athleticism and the ability to play in space are at a premium. The offensive skill players have become so good defenses cannot afford mismatches.

Mule · 02-06-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRPORSCHE

Look up LaRon Landry. I personally think he is the best saftey in the NFL. These guys have to be able to react to the initial hit from the WR, start running, maybe to even catch up, and then make the tackle in open field. You don't need height for any of this. Then if your really good you get to go head hunting. Possibly a saftey blitz.

Landry is amazing!

gprsh924 · 02-06-2008, 11:40 AM

The tall lanky guys simply aren't as agile as the guys that are 5'10" or 6'. The corners have to have that extra bit of agility to be able to react the WR's routes. Look at how differently a receiver like Wes Welker runs his routes vs. Randy Moss. Those extra quick little steps are the difference.