Complaint About Mac Printing

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Mule

Let me rephrase my original statement. I have heard that Macs are wonderful machines. I must have experienced some anomaly because it seemed as though every experience I had trying to print, took an inordinately long period of time. I am assuming that this is some personal problem on my part and am seeking counseling. I sincerely hope that no Mac user or anyone else for that matter was offended by my obviously incorrect statement. What helped to confuse me was that as an HP authorized printer technician I was aware that Apples used Postscript printer control language to print. Postscript required the printer to address every pixel on every page. So a 600 dpi printer had to address roughly 56,100 pixels & determine which one got a dot & which one didn't. In comparison, a PC printed using the HP Printer Control Language. This downloaded fonts on boot up & from that point only sent commands saying "put an a here or a b there. So it SEEMED as though the PC responded much more quickly. Obviously I was confused & I hope the counseling helps me overcome my reliance on fact. Hopefully no one was offended by my explanation & in closing let me say, Macs print like pigs.

Using your reliance on "fact" can you explain why HP quotes the same printing specs, specifically ppm specs, for Macs and Wintels on their website?

This is the first I have heard about this significant Mac printing problem and I read a lot and have used Macs since 1984 and PCs off and on throughout that time.

I think your "facts" may be very dated. At one time, Macs were the only real machine for DTP (a long time ago) and perhaps then what you are saying has some relevance.

You seem to have a serious problem communicating like an adult, FWIW.

FWIW.

Best,

Kurt

[Mule]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Adobes configurable postscript interpreter, a RIP engine

The pre press industry standard for quality

If u knew anything about design you'd understand why loading fonts at boot is an issue

For everyday business functions its fine

Not in the graphics world

As they say. a little knowledge is dangerous. The little knowledge you exhibit here is that Postscript is the standard in the graphics industry. If you're doing 4 color separations, it's the only way to go. If you're printing letters, IT SUCKS. Most people print letters. If you like, we can start a poll to see how many people here print 4 color separations. First, you have to wait for the Mac & it's robust operating system to cojitate over every dot on the page. While this is taking place you are entertained by the little Mac whirlygig spinning around on the screen. Once this process completes, the Mac has to transmit the same amount of info as if it was doing a full page, 4 color separation graphic. This takes a while as well. Next the printer now has to digest this myriad of information, even if you're only printing one sentence. Again, this takes a while. For the privilege of experiencing all this high efficiency, you have to pay additional money for a Postscript capable printer and 4X as much memory. Did I mention Macs print like pigs?

Feel free to correct any and all inaccuracies in the above statement with no fear of hurting my feelings.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

Using your reliance on "fact" can you explain why HP quotes the same printing specs, specifically ppm specs, for Macs and Wintels on their website?

This is the first I have heard about this significant Mac printing problem and I read a lot and have used Macs since 1984 and PCs off and on throughout that time.

I think your "facts" may be very dated. At one time, Macs were the only real machine for DTP (a long time ago) and perhaps then what you are saying has some relevance.

You seem to have a serious problem communicating like an adult, FWIW.

FWIW.

Best,

Kurt

I will try to communicate in a more adult manner. HP quotes printer specs period. They do not mention what kind of computer the printer is connected to. If your computer is incapable of providing data rapidly enough to run the printer at top speed, that is not an HP problem.

Let me know if this is adult enough.

PS while you're attacking my communication abilities you might want to jump on JYL also. He's the one who started this by saying that his Mac prints poorly.

[TimT]

I don't know much about macs, but I tend to read threads about macs since my 73 yo mother has a mac, and I'd like to at least be able to help her out when she has computer problem. So I read threads such as this whenever they pop up.

Macs print like pigs.

Apparently not... My mother doesn't have clue about "drivers" or "loading fonts"

She prints photos, she prints checks, she prints cut and pastes from her fav websites..

My mom can print from a mac seamlessly....

As an aside, there are two people on my ignore list... one is an animal and one is a state ....

I have to log in sto avoid reading the crap they post... unfortunately when I'm not logged in I have to wade through their posts.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Mule

As they say. a little knowledge is dangerous. The little knowledge you exhibit here is that Postscript is the standard in the graphics industry. If you're doing 4 color separations, it's the only way to go. If you're printing letters, IT SUCKS. Most people print letters. If you like, we can start a poll to see how many people here print 4 color separations. First, you have to wait for the Mac & it's robust operating system to cojitate over every dot on the page. While this is taking place you are entertained by the little Mac whirlygig spinning around on the screen. Once this process completes, the Mac has to transmit the same amount of info as if it was doing a full page, 4 color separation graphic. This takes a while as well. Next the printer now has to digest this myriad of information, even if you're only printing one sentence. Again, this takes a while. For the privilege of experiencing all this high efficiency, you have to pay additional money for a Postscript capable printer and 4X as much memory. Did I mention Macs print like pigs?

Feel free to correct any and all inaccuracies in the above statement with no fear of hurting my feelings.

You really are amazing. You regurgitate what I say, agree with/validate it then say I don;'t know anything.

Furthermore you have claimed many times that Macs are not general business devices and are only used in the niche graphics/design market so again what's the problem.

And quite frankly your description of the print process is so wrong it's not funny.

A one sentence 1 color document does not get processed as a 4 color full page doc. That's just a silly statement.

The info gets crunched once, either by the host computer using a software rip, onboard hardware rip or by an external rip between the host and printer or by the printers onboard rip.

The slow print speeds you may have experienced on desktop publishing Macs is more likely attributed to poor work habits of the user.

[kstar]

My Mom and Daughter (9) and Grandfather (84) also print from Macs without major issues, FWIW. I am sure a Wintel could also be set-up for them that would print fine too.

I am not a printing expert, but I can understand how PostScript might take longer, but OS X does not have to use PostScript and it's not always recommended. BTW, Postscript is what basically started the DTP revolution and Display PostScript was what made WYSIWYG on Mac desktops doable at time when I don't think there were any WYSIWYG "PCs".

PostScript is not a dirty word.

Macs/Mactels and Wintels on the same network can share a network printer as well. HP has "PostScript" free drivers for OS X so I guess they are using raster, but I really don't know.

A very large number (most, all? I don't know) of HP printers are compatible with both Macs and Wintels and HP is claiming the same PPM rates. I suspect this has some meaning.

Finally, this serious Mac printing issue has eluded me for years and the reviews I recall reading about OS X don't flag it . . . maybe in the OS 9 and earlier days it was more of an issue??

I think what we have is a smelly red herring in the thread.

Best,

Kurt

[Mule]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

You really are amazing. You regurgitate what I say, agree with/validate it then say I don;'t know anything.

Furthermore you have claimed many times that Macs are not general business devices and are only used in the niche graphics/design market so again what's the problem.

The problem has been stated repeatedly. Macs print poorly.

And quite frankly your description of the print process is so wrong it's not funny.

A one sentence 1 color document does not get processed as a 4 color full page doc. That's just a silly statement.


If I remember correctly, you write computer games. I don't know how deeply that requires you to delve into the printing process, but let's see.

The info gets crunched once, either by the host computer using a software rip, onboard hardware rip or by an external rip between the host and printer or by the printers onboard rip.

So do these 3 processes take turns out of politeness? Is there an organized rotation or what? Is it moon phase or some mystical process known only to the Mac enlightened? Please clear this up.

The slow print speeds you may have experienced on desktop publishing Macs is more likely attributed to poor work habits of the user.

I should have guessed this. It's not the computer, it's the user. I'm a little surprised at this too because Macs, as I understand it, don't require complicated set up like pc's & run perfectly out of the box. Maybe it knew I wasn't a Mac person & just made me wait. Whatever the cause was, it was consistent. It's been a while since I messed with a Mac but during the 15 years when I did, every one I ever printed on was annoyingly slow compared to a pc. At least now I know why.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

My Mom and Daughter (9) and Grandfather (84) also print from Macs without major issues, FWIW. I am sure a Wintel could also be set-up for them that would print fine too.

I am not a printing expert, but I can understand how PostScript might take longer, but OS X does not have to use PostScript and it's not always recommended. BTW, Postscript is what basically started the DTP revolution and Display PostScript was what made WYSIWYG on Mac desktops doable at time when I don't think there were any WYSIWYG "PCs".

Sounds like they may have fixed the problem.

PostScript is not a dirty word.

Never said it was. All I said is that it had way, way, way to much overhead for printing text.

Macs/Mactels and Wintels on the same network can share a network printer as well. HP has "PostScript" free drivers for OS X so I guess they are using raster, but I really don't know.

HPPCL has used vector graphics since the LJ4.

A very large number (most, all? I don't know) of HP printers are compatible with both Macs and Wintels and HP is claiming the same PPM rates. I suspect this has some meaning.

Once again, they don't post PPM rates based on what kind of computer the printer is connected to. No HP printer is compatible with any Postscript printing unless it has a Postscript chipset & additional ram. Several years ago HP got tired of paying Adobe & wrote their own interpreter, This reduced the cost but was not included in every printer.

Finally, this serious Mac printing issue has eluded me for years and the reviews I recall reading about OS X don't flag it . . . maybe in the OS 9 and earlier days it was more of an issue??

I think what we have is a smelly red herring in the thread.

Best,

Kurt

Whatever color the herring is, it stunk up Mac's ability to print for many years. I am perfectly willing to accept that it is better now. using your same reasoning, we should dis-allow all past problems of windows & only consider the here & now. Good God!

[kstar]

What are the PPM based on? Why are they there? Just curious. Some folks might have problems with printers not printing at the speed stated in the specs. Maybe there is some small print somewhere?

Where I am making an issue of past Windows problem?

BTW, no one is claiming Macs are perfect out of the box, but you keep repeating it. There are some things that do work really well out of the box though.

I think it is reasonable to discuss current issues, FWIW.

Best,

Kurt

[Mule]

Look, we have gone around the entire universe. As simply put as I can possibly put it, for most of their existence, Macs have printed text poorly. This was a problem for any type of user who requires text output (virtually all business users). I am perfectly willing to accept that this has been improved on. But this is one of the reasons that I personally was never even tempted to get one.

HP & every other mfr fudged the ppm numbers. I never could find out what they were based on.

[kstar]

I think Macs have almost always printed text very well, but that is my opinion. Display and output typography are two of the reasons the platform has been so popular in the DTP market. Maybe it took longer to print than a WinTel when using PS, which makes sense perhaps.

Most if not all of the millions of folks using Macs are printing every day with no mass revolt; not even a mention of this problem that I have read about.

They sold over 2 million Macs last quarter. Maybe we are all so punch drunk on the kool-aid we didn't notice how screwed up our printing system is.

I think your past problems are no longer an issue, FWIW.

Best,

Kurt

[jyl]

Wow, sorry for stirring this up.

I haven't noticed if the Mac prints quickly or slowly. I usually print text and don't much care about the speed.

I'm just fussed because, normally, on a Mac you don't have to care about drivers and common tasks are dead easy. Like riding a bicycle.

But now here is something - printing - where I don't have that same "riding a bicycle" experience.

Yeah, I've figured out every printing issue I've run into with the Mac. But my wife wouldn't have been able to.

[kstar]

John, like we said earlier, make sure have you have the exact driver as recommended by the printer manufacturer. Generic drivers can be a problem on any platform.

You should be able to find the driver on the manufacturer's site.

Even Macs are not always easy and smooth, only most of the time.

Best,

Kurt

edit: OOOps! I see you figured it out already. Sorry!

[Mule]

It's amazing isn't it?

[stomachmonkey]

Define print text poorly, are we referring to quality or speed?

Here's how GA's used to f things up.

Graphic Artist is putting together a flyer. Doing layout in Quark. They have 20 or so images to import and copy to place.

Quark lets you resize, flip, rotate, crop, recolor etc so artists with bad habits tend not to use OPI (proxy images). They send the full res image to the printer every time they print the layout. It gets compounded by all the "Stuff" they have done to placed images, the printer needs to do all that math.

The proper way to do it is using low res proxies until you are satisfied with the layout. Then you go back to the original hi res and you resize, recolor, rotate, flip it in Photochop. Then bring it back into your page layout program.

Most if not all artists are too lazy to do that.

Fonts make things worse. In the days before ATM you needed to manage fonts manually. That meant the good old Font Mover DA. Again out of laziness an artist would just dump fonts into the system to load at startup. After a while you ended up with hundreds if not thousands of open fonts.

That was a massive system hog.

When an app launches it reads the list of available fonts. It's fairly obvious that the more open/available fonts the longer this takes, the app boots slower and it's performance gets degraded since it needs to keep that font list refreshed.

The artist used to make problems for the admins on Macs. Everyone loves fancy fonts and since neither the admin or the artist had any brains the artist would give their admin buddies 500 gajilion fonts for their little SE and the poor thing would choke.

Most printers came with a set of fonts on board. If the font was resident on the printer then it was not downloaded by the computer. But since Artists back then were font happy and used 20 different fonts for a 15 word sentence you ended up downloading fonts to the printer.

[Sapporo Guy]

I've only had trouble printing to un-supported esoteric printers to the OSX system.
Some times I eventually got a result after some studying and others were just plain Windoze only.

Speed has been the same for both systems for me.

I tend to notice less "bloat functions" on OSX ... at least it preints

Not having drivers for every single printer can be understandable.
I do think that Apple should put more effort to get more drivers to be compatible with OSX. Which is why I lame blame also on Apple and not just the printer manufacture.

However, many times I have just plugged my printer up via USB and then selected it from the print control panel.

overall experience : -1 for apple and the manufactuers.

[island911]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

...
BTW, no one is claiming Macs are perfect out of the box,...

...so then Macs are Not like Porsches?