One Slips Through the Cracks

tabs · 03-10-2008, 11:45 AM

Today James D Juilia is running one of his collectible gun auction up in Maine. Hugh collection of collectible military stuff, including a large collection of German WW2 Sniper rifles. The Sniper rifle that had SS markings went for 20K plus buyers. WOW thats a bunch of money for a rifle you can't really prove was a real sniper or not. Prices remain hot and heavy for collectible guns in spite of a slowing economy.

Anyway what I picked up was a great AO Niedner heavy Barrel Target rifle in 30/06. These were made in the 20s and 30s by one of the best custom rifle makers in America. He is mentioned in the same breath as Pope, Zischang and, Schoyan. When accuracy counts AO Niedner rifles are mentioned at the top of the list.

In my estimation this rifle went cheap at $2587 to the door..It was estimated at 3K to 5K. I have seen his guns at the Beinfield and Sporting Arms show in the 5k+ range.

I think the reason this rifle didn't do better than it did was its placement in the auction. It was among all the US and German military rifles many of which were sniper rifles. If it had been placed with the custom rifles (English & American) the buyers might have noticed it.

Jeff Higgins · 03-10-2008, 12:55 PM

Very nice score there, tabs. Post a few targets once you have gotten around to shooting it.

tabs · 01:22 PM

Just keep tuned in tommorow. There is something even better that I am after. This was a minor want. If I got it cheap I would buy it, if it went expensive ohh well.

Niedner rifles are not very common. His lifetime production was around 2000 guns. I know where 2 of them are at the moment.

Monte Whitley has a BA on a Springfield 03 action in 30/06 with shooting box, luggage case and accessories for $8995.00
and
Safari Outfitters of Long Island has a BA in 300 H&H that he wants $3895.00 for. This one is a Pre -war winchester mdl 70 that was re-worked by Niedner, or perhaps just rebarreled.

tabs · 03-11-2008, 10:30 AM

This what I was really after. A Wesley Richards 1881 Match Rifle. Very rare. This rifle is pictured in several books on English Falling Block rifles. I went $11,500.00 out the door. It went for $12,750.00. Just didn't have the ready cash to push on it.

sammyg2 · 03-11-2008, 11:25 AM

$12.5k for an old rifle? No offense, but you were fortunate not to be the dumbest guy in the room

Seriously, is the price so high because people see it as a speculative investment or it is just something they want to have really really bad?

livi · 03-11-2008, 11:30 AM

Slipping threw the cratch..?

cgarr · cgarr's Garage

Its a room full of mid life crisis guys with more money than they know what to do with, Look at some of the muscle car auctions going on these days!!

tabs · 03-11-2008, 07:34 PM

when U start talking $750,000.00 for an old rifle your talking some money.

tabs · 03-11-2008, 07:41 PM

An aquaintence of mine got $687,000.00 for an old Winchester 1866. A world record for a winchester at the time. However it was superceded by Henry Rifle #5 which was a presentation to Secratary of the Navy under Lincoln Henry Stanton.. That rifle went for $750,000.00. I was sitting in the audience on that one.

Hetmann · 03-11-2008, 08:40 PM

This is a blaring example of the greater fool theory. Old firearms just aren't worth that much to me. Can you even fire that thing? If not, its just an expensive wall hanger or something to hide in your gun vault. Sorry but I can think of better uses for my cash.

Jeff Higgins · 03-12-2008, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2

$12.5k for an old rifle? No offense, but you were fortunate not to be the dumbest guy in the room

Seriously, is the price so high because people see it as a speculative investment or it is just something they want to have really really bad?

Purely speculative investment. The guys paying that kind of scratch for old guns have more or less ruined it for us guys that actually like to shoot them. Like the guys in our little P-car world that pronounce it "Poorsh" they have nary a clue what they are looking at beyong its potential ROI.

I well remember when we were buying "really nice" old single shots like that for a couple grand (tops), and going out and shooting them. We were buying old Trapdoors for $100 in very good, shootable condition. Your average Sharps '74 was $400-$500, High Walls, Rolling Blocks and Hepburns half of that. I bought a Ballard Pacific for $200, fixed it up, and started hunting with it.

No more. Those days are gone. The speculative investors have driven the price of even average "shooters" out of reach of, well, us average shooters. It's sad. Most of these guns will never speak again.

tabs · 03-12-2008, 09:23 AM

Henry Rifle #5..is a piece of American History, that you can touch. Henry #1 was presented to Lincoln and is in the Smithsonian. So what value do you put on it? It can't be replaced, is one of a kind because of its provence. It just so happened that a Billionaire bought it because he wanted the bestest of everything that he can get.

There are more collectors today than ever before, that wnat to touch a piece of history and that demand is what drives prices. The gun market is not largely driven by ROI people. Alot of the guys who have the stroke to pay for this stuff truly love their stuff and see it as a good hedge for their money.

Back at the turn of the 20th century you could buy a Colt Patterson for $1.50, today 150K. Supply and demand. Collecting of firearms didn't become mainstream until after WW2. Until then people might collect guns from the 16th and 17th centurys. After WW2 all that changed, as the common man had more money and wanted to have something from the past.

BTW it was a WSJ article in 1998 that gave gun collecting the same respectability as fine art, tamps, coins, art objects, furniture and classic cars.

Joeaksa · 03-12-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hetmann

This is a blaring example of the greater fool theory. Old firearms just aren't worth that much to me. Can you even fire that thing? If not, its just an expensive wall hanger or something to hide in your gun vault. Sorry but I can think of better uses for my cash.

So I suppose that if someone offered you a 1952 356 Porsche for $5,000 that you would say no, that its not worth it? How about a 250 Ferarri GTO for $20,000? Still not worth it?

Well ladies and gents, these cars sold for this amount in the not too distant past. The Porsche is worth far more and the Ferarri in the $3-6 MILLION dollar range these days. In the 1960's I could have bought B-17 Boeing's for $15,000 while today they are simply not available at any price, or if sold its over $10 million bux.

Just because its "not worth it to me" does not mean a lot. That 1866 rifle that Grandpa has in his closet that he wanted to will you might allow you to retire 20 years early, but guess that does not matter, right?

tabs · 03-12-2008, 12:49 PM

That 1866 Winchester belonged to Glenwood Swanson. It was forensically proven to have been in indian hands at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. One of only 15 rifles proven to have been there.

Glenwood also has a 1873 Trapdoor Carbine that was proven to have been there, what makes it unique is that the name "Martini" and "H" are scratched into the stock. If you recall Trumpeter Martini was the last white man to have seen Custer alive. He was sent to deliver a message to Benteen to "Come Quick Big Indian Village, Bring Packs" (horses). Martini was a Trumpeter in CO H and was on messanger duty that day.

Glenwood bought that Trapdoor at the Beinfield gunshow about 10 years ago. Some guy walked in wanting to sell it. Today that gun would bring in excess of $500,000.00.

Jeff Higgins · 03-12-2008, 01:49 PM

So the Indian guns are worth more because they won, right?

Hetmann · 03-12-2008, 01:56 PM

What do I know? Enjoy your retirement. Oh yeah and tell me where to pick up that 356, I have my checkbook with me.

Drago · Drago's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

...Just because its "not worth it to me" does not mean a lot. That 1866 rifle that Grandpa has in his closet that he wanted to will you might allow you to retire 20 years early, but guess that does not matter, right?

That old Trapdoor that I got from Grandpa is my retirement?

Jeff, time to start shooting it....well, I need to get it back first.

Excellent. Nice pick up tabs.

tabs · 03-13-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

So the Indian guns are worth more because they won, right?

No it was a Winchester and it was proven to be at the Battle.

Unless you can prove forensically your Trapdoor was at the BLBH your not going to be retiring on it. Officers Models can go for 40K, that is a start anyway.

Hugh R · 03-13-2008, 03:02 PM

Hey Tabs,

The last week of May and first two weeks of June I'll be living in your town for a feature we're going to be shooting there. I'll look you up when I know my schedule.

tabs · 03-14-2008, 12:48 AM

Good deal hugh