Everybody loves Muhammad!

[DARISC]

Converted to become a Sunni Muslim, conscientious objector “I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong... They never called me nigger”, now retired, he remains a beloved and active figure (some would go so far as to claim him to be a national treasure); an interesting contrast to the way a current presidential candidate is being treated by some small minded people.

[Joeaksa]

And who is this person?

[billyboy]

cassius clay

[Jeff Higgins]

Muhammad Ali?

[9dreizig]

you call asking some basic questions about what the potential POTUS is all about "small minded".. you'd preffer that we just corronate him because he's well dressed, well spoken and black ?

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

you call asking some basic questions about what the potential POTUS is all about "small minded"..

No.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

you call asking some basic questions about what the potential POTUS is all about "small minded".. you'd preffer that we just corronate him because he's well dressed, well spoken and black ?

?????

[Mule]

Never ever liked Clay or Ali. National treasure, national embarrassment would be closer. A racist America hater, don't believe me, ask Joe Frazier!

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Mule

Never ever liked Clay or Ali. National treasure, national embarrassment would be closer. A racist America hater, don't believe me, ask Joe Frazier!

+1. A fine boxer, but also a coward that refused to serve the nation that he owed so much to.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by fintstone

+1. A fine boxer, but also a coward that refused to serve the nation that he owed so much to.

Talented boxer. Held behind the head & held onto the ropes, both of which are illegal. Had more fights given to him than any boxer in history. Jimmy Young whipped his ass. I spoke to Ken Norton on the radio one day. I told him, "Champ, you whipped Ali's ass every time you got close to him!" He said, "well, that one fight he got to me pretty good." I said, "what about the one they gave him where he went to the hospital for a week & you went home?" He said' "yeah, you might have a point there." George Chuvallo's beating put him in the hospital. The reacon he shakes like a crack head now is from the beatings. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with any disease. As Smokin Joe Frazier put it, "That aint no Parkinsons. That's left hookitis, go look at the tapes."

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by fintstone

a coward that refused to serve the nation that he owed so much to.

Define cowardice. Look up "courage of one's convictions" and "civil disobedience'.

I don't know where you were in the Viet Nam era or what you know about that filthy little war that Americans eventually spoke out against and brought a halt to the futility which cost this country so many brave souls. Been to the wall?

We lost that war. It was a militarily unwinable and immoral war.

Those who believe we lost that war because of "unpatriotic" citizen's protests haven't a clue regarding that whole disgraceful era. It was a very complicated era, perhaps not fully comprehendable to those who have only read about it but didn't live in it and experience it directly.

Nor do those have a clue who do not respect the loyalty, bravery and heroism of those who chose to serve rather than protest; our fighting men and women have always been the bravest and always perform magnificently. It's not their job to question.....you know the rest, so they do what they were sworn to do, as we expect them to.

However, if you believe that all who were fighting there believed they were fighting for a just cause as that war sank into the miserable abyss from which we finally retreated, you're dead wrong. Those who saw the futility and the wrongness still did their jobs as valiantly and courageously as those who were gung ho to keep fighting on, not understanding that military victory could not be achieved and not understanding what a mistake this country had made by inserting itself as it did.

There were probably a few cowards and those who chose to desert, but I believe they were very few in number. There were MANY who served their time and did their best, as they were sworn to do, then returned to civilian life (the lucky ones) and joined the protests that had grown to a monumental size in this country.

I did. And I'm no coward. And if you question my patriotism, that would be a matter better discussed some other place than this forum - probably outdoors, considering the mood that some blindly judgemental black and white posts sometimes put me in.

I don't know what your military experience has been but I assume from your posts that you are a "military man", active or retired. Have you been in combat, seen your comrades killed or have their limbs blown off? You post with such self confidence and categorical certitude on military matters that I can't help but be a bit curious.

Oh, yeah....forgot to mention; I enlisted, I wasn't drafted - learned all about Viet Nam through on the job training...a great education.

[Mule]

I was draft age at the time & his statement was that his new religion, islam, was against violence & he therefore could not serve in the military. Chew on that & let me know how it tastes.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

?????

Doesn't he have to actually say something to be considered well spoken?
Obama I mean, not Clay, or Muhammad

Originally Posted by Mule

Never ever liked Clay or Ali. National treasure, national embarrassment would be closer. A racist America hater, don't believe me, ask Joe Frazier!

Not unlike Barack's pastor

Yeah, he took a lot of beatings and now he is punchy, but he was a sweeet fighter. He missed his physical peak sitting out the Vietnam War, which is a bit of a shame, I always thought.

Since when is Islam against violence?

[p911dad]

MA is the greatest fighter on all counts, including style. Back then the Black Muslims and Malcolm X gave black men someone and something they could identify with. It was a package deal made in heaven for the media(Howard Cosell). Who should those guys have looked up to, Dick Nixon? John Daley? That was some of the greatest theatre and greatest boxing ever seen.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by DARISC

...We lost that war. It was a militarily unwinable and immoral war...

I don't believe for a minute that the war was unwinable or immoral...and I certainly don't believe that Clay was a true conscientious objector.

From the memoirs of Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, leader of the North Vietnam military: "What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender. It was the same at the battles of Tet. You defeated us. We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice your media were definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won."

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by Mule

I was draft age at the time & his statement was that his new religion, islam, was against violence & he therefore could not serve in the military. Chew on that & let me know how it tastes.

That's a little oblique, Mule. Not like you. So were you drafted? Or did you volunteer? Did you support the war effort or protest? Just curious.

EDIT: OOOOPs....I see mule has left the building.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by fintstone

From the memoirs of Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, leader of the North Vietnam military: "What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender.

Proof that the war was not about winning, but about feeding work to the Military Industrial Complex and young people into the meat grinder.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by Dueller

That's a little oblique, Mule. Not like you. So were you drafted? Or did you volunteer? Did you support the war effort or protest? Just curious.

EDIT: OOOOPs....I see mule has left the building.

It's called sleep. I did neither on both your questions, like most people. As Flintstone pointed out, the war was run pretty poorly. I was glad I didn't have to go, which had I been drafted, I would have done. Anything else I can fill in for you about my youth, just let me know.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Proof that the war was not about winning, but about feeding work to the Military Industrial Complex and young people into the meat grinder.

Careful, you're talking about every leftie's hero's, JFK & LBJ.

[Moses]

How any thinking person could defend the debacle in Vietnam is just bizarre. I guess it's the same rabid folks who think the adventure in Iraq is going swimmingly.

In brief; In 1960, after JFKs election it was decided that the prospect of the communist North Vietnamese overtaking South Vietnam was so dangerous and threatening that we committed 50,000 lives and a trillion dollars to make sure the "unthinkable" did not come to pass. Guess what. The "unthinkable" happened anyway.

So where are we now after the cataclysmic victory of the communist tyrants in southeast Asia? They are very important trade partners. Americans visit Vietnam. Vietnamese visit America. It's quite clear we could have skipped that very expensive and painful chapter in American history and ended up in the very same place. It becomes more and more apparent that foreign policy is best conducted through trade and the cultural exchanges that accompany it.

I'm no fan of Muhammad Ali, but whether he was motivated by cowardice or convenience, he was certainly right about Vietnam.