Dillon 650 Primer Danger
 

I made several posts about my Dillon 650 and the fact that it has crushed primers and detonated the primer stack several times, leaving holes in my ceiling and my ears ringing. 650.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1208071202.jpg

I received a lot of ridicule and flack about those postings stating that I must be the only person in the world who has ever had such a problem with a Dillon

I now know, for a fact, that many, many others have had exactly the same problem. I was doing a search for the best reloading machine, better than a 1050 if possible and I ran across many comments by people that have had crushed primers in their 650, some of them blowing up in their face. Only Dillons design saved them from serious harm, only luck, in my opinion, saved them from great harm. The 650 design somehow allows primers to turn sideways and be crushed upon the next stroke of the lever. Only luck prevents the primer from going off. This appears to be a design defect and is not related to the users operation of the press. I have had the same problem loading 0.308, but at much less frequency. I have had shells, loaded with a primer crossway's and partially crushed, make it all the way to the final loading. IE it was possible to set off the primer with a full powder charge and a bullet in place, inside the bullet seating die or the crimp die or in between. I suspect the bang would be much louder with the bullet inside the die if the primer went off.

Bottom line, the Dillon 650, in my opinion, has a serious defect that may cause serious harm to the user. Dillon needs to correct this before someone is seriously hurt.]

Scary.

Snow,

Dillon is the best reloading press maker that I know of and if there is ANY defect in their design they would stop making presses and change it IMMEDIATELY. They simply do not accept any problems with their presses.

I know that you have had this issue for a long time but I also know that I used a 650 for over 15 years, then sold the press to a good friend of mine (my Dentist in Berlin Germany) and he has now used the same press for over 10 years. Not one case of this happening with this machine. As well I know 4-5 other reloaders in the Phoenix area using 650's and no problems.

Why is it happening with you and a select few? Please show us a link to where these people are documenting their issues so we can find out for ourselves.

I have no link to Dillon what so ever. Just been a very happy user for many, many years. Every time I had a problem they took care of it immediately, as in right now and no questions asked and they paid for everything. You are the only reloader I know of who has had these problems as you keep advertising it on the PPOT, but then I have not reloaded in a while. Show us the others who are having these issues and then lets have Dillon take care of it.

Damn........I think once would be enough for me.

Hmmm... three .45-70 cases, three different headstamps. I hope these are not all from the same "lot" of reloaded ammunition. If such carelessness in mixing brass is carried over into other reloading operations, you need to find a less complex hobby and stop blaming Dillon for your troubles.

snowman has guns????

One thing I love about my Lee--I manually verify each primer is properly loaded.

Jack, have you tried contacting Dillon?

If the shellplate is properly adjusted, there's no way it can rotate with a sideways primer like the ones in the pic. And, the only way to get a sideways primer to start with is if the primer tube is loose in the magazine tube. You need to get some help adjusting your machine when you change calibers. My Dillon is well past 50K rounds with no issues at all.

John

My only question is: why the funk do you keep using it?

Sounds to me like the gizmo needs to be redesigned so less skilled operators don't blow chit up, to be quite honest.

This is a timely thread for me because I'm considering reloading since I have a new Colt AR-15. I'll do a lot of research 1st and talk to guys who reload before buying anything.

Art,

If 50,000+ rounds and no malfunctions is any indication, "most" people are very happy with Dillon products.

If you are going to be shooting a lot, a progressive press is really important. I had a 550 Dillon and traded it in on a 650 as the 650 indexes itself. In other words when you pull the handle the shells rotate on their own to the next station on the 650. On the 550 you have to do it by hand, so its not as fast. All depends on how many rounds you want to load or shoot.

The guy using my old 650 is still very happy with it but the important thing about any Dillon product except the commercial presses is that they will overhaul or recondition them FOR FREE at anytime you like. Not happy with it, send it in and they will return it "as new" for free. You want to do this every year, they will gladly do it every year. Its called their "Lifetime "No-B.S." Warranty" and no other reloading company does this.

Let me just have Mike Dillon tell you the way he feels about it:

http://www.dillonprecision.com/about_us.html

Again, I do not have anything what so ever to do with the Dillon company. I am just a very happy customer and used Hornady and RCBS presses years ago before finding the Dillon press when I was based in Germany with the military. Won my Dillon press at the "Rod and Gun Club" meetings/dinners in Berlin and it was one of the best things I ever received.

I live down the road from them and have stopped in their facility often and its always spic and span, professionally run and employees very helpful. Someday going to get a tour but not made it yet, but they run a tight ship and do things right IMHO. Thats why its the leader in the reloading press market. Thats why I will never use any other press other than a Dillon.

Reloading just freaks me out. You guys are crazy IMNSHO.

Why? It's an entirely safe (for most of us anyway) and enjoyable hobby. I've had a great time with it since I was a young man. Casting my own bullets, I can shoot centerfire revolvers and pistols for what most folks spend to shoot rimfires. Centerfire rifle costs are a bit higher when I'm shooting jacketed bullet rounds, but most of my rifles get a steady diet of cast bullets these days as well. In 35 years of doing this, and well over 100,000 rounds of my own ammo fired, I have never had a problem. I've had factory rounds fail to fire, but never my own. Never damaged a gun, never had an accident reloading, casting, shooting, or anything else associated with this.

I think he's right, something is going on that is causing primers to up set. I had that happen once on a Hornady Press that was out of adjustment. The Dillon stuff I have used is simple strong and safe. I would not use it until they look at it. Having a stack tube of primers go off, that's not good. 45-70 I would not mix brass ether. My big rifle bench cartridges are all hand loaded to get max accuracy. Does the progressive made cartridge preform well?

Dillon has aligned the press for me, it still does it, and with all the same lot of brass, although it shouldn't matter for primers as there is no adjustment for different lots of brass.

The problem is apparently quite common as I have found a multitude of comments about it on several bulletin boards. I will dig up them again and post a summary of them sometime in the next couple of weeks.

I am getting rid of the 650 before it hurts me, part of the reason I am looking for a better press. Anyone want to make a good offer and its yours. Only loaded approx 3,000 rounds of 45-70 and 2,000 rounds of 308. Dies are separate. Redding Competition bullet seating die, Dillon resizing and decaping die, crimp die.

The facts speak for themselves, I have photos of both 45-70 and 308 crushed primers. Everything is adjusted properly, and readjusted by Dillon, with same result. Shell plate is as tight as possible, only about 0.006" rock in it, Primer tube is tight, primer feed ok and has been replaced twice due to primer blowing up. Yes Dillon has replaced every part, no questions asked, every time, for free, but is it really worth the danger involved? MY opinion, as an engineer with over 35 years experience, their design has a problem. Maybe its tolerance. Earlier machines may be different with better or different parts. It may be tolerance build up, or just plain bad design that has a certain percentage of unacceptable parts. I don't know, but I do know I will no longer be using it.

Jack,

Please get another brand of press. Then you can be unhappy with it.

Just checked the forum on the Dillon site and out of 4 pages of threads with around 10 per page, there were a grand total of 3 threads talking about primers on the 650 press. Every post that I saw had ideas and suggestions by Dillon to fix the problem and most of the posters replied that it worked and was no longer a problem.

Please get something else and sure that you will then complain that it does not have the unlimited guarantee that Dillon has.

My submission for 2008 Quote of the Year.

But, so far we only know he has ammo, guns remain unconfirmed at this point.

Can't you figure out what the problem is? If you're going to slag a product you really should be 100% sure that the product is at fault. Is it even remotely possible that the root cause is not the press?

Funny thing, Dillon aligns press, I still get crushed primers, and somehow its my fault!!?? BS!

I will post what I found, widespread primer problems with the 650 within the next 2 weeks.

I did not buy a press to redesign it, I bought it to use. This press, in my opinion is downright dangerous and should be recalled.

I work with and align a lot of precision machines, eg 0.0007" wire bonding machines, I also do all the machine work on car engines, ALL the machine work, for race engines, NO problems, Yet a simple reloading machine, that has almost no adjustments for primers, is crushing primers and no amount of adjustment by me OR DILLON can cure the problem. WTF yeh, its my fault, just BS total BS!!!!!!! And then theres all those other people who have the exact same problem!! WHY???

Like I said, my 650 is for sale, make me an offer.

Not saying it's your fault but based on your credentials surely you can figure out rather quickly what the problem is.

I know, not really your job but you must have some idea, even a gut instinct.

Might help Dillon fix it and maybe save someone's life.

The problem appears to be to much tolerance in the shell plate. The hole is almost square, allowing the primer to rotate. Add to this the tolerance necessary for the shell plate to rotate freely and any slight perturbation will cause the primer to rotate. Even the slightest misalignment in the shell plate will cause the primer to rotate. The shell plate position is determined by a detent ball and spring. Not exactly a precision method of location. The spring is not strong enough to positively locate the shell plate, yet the spring is to strong to allow the free rotation of the shell plate. A no win situation and a certain reason for problems. In addition the p[rimer plate must rotate freely and align perfectly, which it does not. It tends to hang up on the mechanism that causes it to rotate. All in all it is a system that does not work reliably with the parts used. I suspect that it is a case of tolerance build up and parts that are not precise enough to do the job;. Bottom line, it don't work, for whatever reason. Pay me my standard rate of $200 per hour and I will give you a definite answer, pay more and I will give you a solution. But I suspect that they already know the answer, they just do not want to implement it due to cost.

PS I am retired so make that $500 per hour, not $200

The problem appears to be to much tolerance in the shell plate. The hole is almost square, allowing the primer to rotate. Add to this the tolerance necessary for the shell plate to rotate freely and any slight perturbation will cause the primer to rotate. Even the slightest misalignment in the shell plate will cause the primer to rotate. The shell plate position is determined by a detent ball and spring. Not exactly a precision method of location. The spring is not strong enough to positively locate the shell plate, yet the spring is to strong to allow the free rotation of the shell plate. A no win situation and a certain reason for problems. In addition the p[rimer plate must rotate freely and align perfectly, which it does not. It tends to hang up on the mechanism that causes it to rotate. All in all it is a system that does not work reliably with the parts used. I suspect that it is a case of tolerance build up and parts that are not precise enough to do the job;. Bottom line, it don't work, for whatever reason. Pay me my standard rate of $200 per hour and I will give you a definite answer, pay more and I will give you a solution. But I suspect that they already know the answer, they just do not want to implement it due to cost.

PS I am retired so make that $500 per hour, not $200

OK I am starting the list. I will add comments that I find for the next 2 weeks to this list. You can find your own list by typing 650 crushed primers into Google. The list follows: The first comment is one of the least damning.

1. Originally posted by 50ae:
I threw my red machine away when I had a bunch of primers detonate when I crushed one while priming. Dillon's system prevents this from ever happening.

not really...I've done that at least 3 times on the Dildon...not a typo! Not the whole tube...but a crushed primer will scare the shiite out of you!

But 3 times out of millions of rounds ain't too bad.

I've been in ammo factories with primer tubes stuck in the ceiling...if it goes wrong in a camdex the whole tube will fire straight up in the air!

2.DamnedDirtyApe
January 8th, 2003, 09:00 AM
I see I'm not the only one who's had problems. Thanks for the replies, all.

Symptoms are:

Won't prime S & B or WCC .45 brass that's been primed & reprimed 10 or more times .... I know about the differences in the primer pockets with these, but the Lee hand primer never had any problems with them at all. They have all been reamed and cleaned out. I have maybe 500 S & B's in my range rotation, maybe 3-400 WCC's. If I use the primer system again, I'll have to cull all these out and do them by hand...a PITA.

For no reason I can fathom (yet) the press wants to flatten out some of the primers, thus ruining many of them. It doesn't feel like they are *forced* into place, it just seems to happen.

Both large and small primers hang up in the tubes. I thought about running some Flitz through there, but haven't yet. Ran a couple of dry patches through there, didn't help.

Misfeeds galore ... hard to categorize, but maybe a lot to do with me not making a full stroke with the handle, and, again, hanging up in the tube. When it screws up, whatever the reason, it's five or ten minutes of disassembling the shell plate et al and cleaning up powder, again and again and again.

I got tired after four evenings of cleaning up powder and took the whole primer system off and put it away for now. I Lee- hand primed about 200 9mm's then loaded them in ABOUT 25 MINUTES!!! The 550 is fast!

I suppose it may take some more time for me to get used to the machine - more experience, and maybe a lesson or two from Dillon might help.

3.
Primer Problems
http://www.twoalphabullets.com/Bullet_failures/3badprimers.jpg
These three casings show the most common malady encountered when loading on a progressive press. Primers seated up side down, crushed or mauled. These were all three loaded on a Dillon 650 in the late 1980's by yours truly. Me and the press soon parted company due to its appetite for primers. I never experienced a detonation but got real tired of having to check each case for proper primer seating. Dillon took the press back no questions asked with a full refund.

4.These listings of Dillon Prmer problems goes on and on and on. I will continue to add to this list until the naysayers say Uncle.

Please, just get another press and get rid of the Dillon. Will give you $300 for it if you want to sell it.

Then you can complain about something else.

That is what I was attempting to say.

I also think it is a bit unfair to denigrate the prodoct without knowing the root cause.

That's pretty amazing, since Dillon wasn't even building the 650 in the late 80's.

jt

I don't give a sht about the root cause, it happens, thats enough, and it happens quite often.

Joe I will take you up on your offer of $300 for the 650, PM your info and you have it.

However I will continue to warn everyone and post every 650 primer event I come across. I have found 100's so they will continue for some time to come.

Jack,

PM sent.

Will hand carry the press to Dillon and get it reconditioned. Anyone need a good press?

Joe

It is as new, Dillon has checked it out so good luck.

PS I have 5 brand new Nosler 0.308 brass shells, same lot, these are $1 ea brand new, sized prepared cases, with primers installed sideways, with powder and bullets installed. This is out of a lot of 50. Thats 10% misloaded primers, a very big chance of a big problem.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1208493009.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1208493037.jpg

Here is exactly what happened with the 45-70

NOT ONCE BUT 3 TIMES!!!!

The 0.308 did the same thing, but, fortunately without the fireworks.

Your have been warned so you are using at your own risk.

More Dillon danger
Castoff
Boolit Mold

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14
I have Dillon Presses and am sorry I ever bought any of them.

I have gone through the "which primer to use" nonsense with Dillon and no matter which brand of primer I was using , it was always the wrong one , according to Dillon.
Same for powders.

The problem with Dillon 650 press primer system is that the primers will partially flip and jam the machine. This then requires a disassembly of the Shell plate and the primer system.
I have heard all the excuses from Dillon I care to hear.

I hired a mechanical engineer to look at their primer system and he concluded the primer disc, which is used to rotate the primers into place, was not close enough to the part over it . This allows the primers to jump when the press is indexed and flips the primers.
Dillon, as always , disavows any knowledge of this.
Finally , in disgust, I asked them to take the 650 press back under their "No BS" guarantee.
Well, I found out that the "NO BS " guarantee is just that---------BS.
They refused to take back the press.
This plus:
1)- a powder charging system------- that by Dillon's own statement-------will only throw a powder charge plus OR minus 1.5 grains
AND
2)- a plastic indexing pawl which breaks at the drop of a hat
has completely disillusioned me with Dillon presses.
For what they charge , I think I should get better products and better customer service.

Another happy Dillon customer



Boolit Master

NVcurmudgeon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pleasant Valley, NV, 400 yd. N of Galena Creek
Posts: 2,782

First off, let me say that Dillon has a fantastic warranty. "No BS" means exactly that. My Square deal, purchased in the early eighties has been factory serviced twice and both times was upgraded at no cost to me. Within normal business hours you can talk to a knowledgeable, polite, and helpful technician with a minimal wait on the phone.

It is very gratifying to me to see that others have trouble with Dillon priming systems. For over twenty years I thought that I was Dillon's stupidest customer. Maybe my using both SP and LP priming systems with my three different caliber conversons exacerbates the problems. I load .45 ACP, .44 Magnum, and 9 mm Luger. My troubles with priming are two. I frequently experience flipping of primers as castoff reports. The other, less common problem is that a primer will occasionally turn sideways and get mashed, or completely turn over and be seated backwards. Either condition is fatal to the reason for buying a progressive in the first place. I load my pistol ammunition 500 to 1000 at a time. The frequent clearing of all partially loaded rounds, and fiddling with the priming system has made me believe I can load faster on a single stage press. Well maybe, not quite, but certainly with a lot less lost and ruined primers, spilled powder, occasional powderless rounds, and Navy language. The last lot of .45 ACP I loaded went flawlessly. That was because I removed the priming system entirely, sized and decapped the cases, and removed them without charging at station 2. Then I primed the cases on the RCBS Ram Priming system of my RS3 press. Then I returned the primed cases to the SD at station two for expanding, charging, seating and crimping. This "semi-progressive" system has the advantage of much of the speed of the SD on a good day, without any of its aggravation, wasted components, shop sweeping, or misfires. So far I have resisted the temptation to order a conversion for .38 Special/.357 Magnum. The warranty is great, the "Blue Press" has cute girls (one of them looks like my wife must have about fifteen years before I met her,) but Dillon would be better off redesigning their lousy priming system.

P.S If I have heard, "Use only Federal or Winchester primers." from Dillon techs once I've heard it a dozen times. I began using WW primers only in the SD after the first phone call to Dillon, early in the Reagan administration. Sad experience and a good Starret mike told me there was little difference.
__________________
Eagles have talons, buzzards don't. The Second Amendment empowers us to be eagles. curmudgeon

Yes Dillon will replace all busted parts, no questions asked, just as good as Costco for replacements, ie you can't do better. BUT WTF you have primers blowing up in your face, primers loaded sideways, that you have to deprime, primers loaded upside down that have to be deprimed.

I buy and work with machines that cost $100,000 or more each, some in the millions. (These are not reloading machines, but electronic mfg equipment and CNC machines) Some do not work right, ie price means nothing for those that are impressed by price. Sometimes its impossible to get the stuff to work right, and the mfg cannot make it right. Dillon, in my opinion, is somewhere in between, can't make it work right, and won't make it right, but keeps shipping the some bad parts to keep face. Thats my opinion as an engineering professional. I understand that a reloading machine may have an occasional mishap, but 5/50 seems typical of what I have and thats just way to many mishaps.

If you have one of these and you see the same problem, I say get rid of it before it hurts you., again my humble opinion as a user.

Jack,

We have been in touch on a regular basis on this since the 17th when you accepted my offer to buy the press.

Its been 3-4 days since I PM'ed you my FedEx shipping account number and have asked you 3 times for your email address so I can Pay Pal you the funds. No answer to my last 2 PM's.

Whats going on here? Are you backing out on the deal to sell the press or what? I have also received one PM from another Pelican asking to buy the press and if I (we as in everyone on the forum) find out that you backed out of this deal and sold it to someone else, then life on PPOT will not be good my friend.

Lets finish this deal and move on, not refuse to finish what you started or stonewall and do nothing.

Joe

I will be out of town for a few weeks. I will finish this withing the next 6 weeks.

Joe
I'd have thought you'd learned your lesson about buying one of those things from a PP member.
Jim

Jim,

I am buying it to find it a new home. Already believe that I have someone who wants it. Will take it by Dillon, explain the situation and have them really go through it then lets find it a new home.

Did have to chuckle at your email though! :)

Joe

Jack,

Any news on this?

Joe

Just finished sizing, decaping, cleaning trimming 500 0.308 cases. Sized to SAMMI chamber min. -0.001". Headspace is SAMMI min +0.002". All 2005 once fired M118 LR brass, weight matched. I will start putting primers in them sometime next week and we will see what happens. Note the sizing die will be removed for this operation, so as not to JAR the machine with that operation. Will keep you informed. I will be using CCI BR2 primers.

Jack,

We agreed to this on the 2nd of May. Its now the third week of June. Its been 6 weeks now.

Lets get this finished.

Joe

Been out of state for 4 weeks. Just getting back to loading primers.