Andrew made a good point. If both cars can have two turbochargers, then let's see how the GT-R does against the more-than-one-decade-old 1997 993 Turbo S. As it turns out, Porsche has been making a GT-R killer for many years.

I thought the GT3-RSR was a race car, no?

. . .


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210350909.jpg

Show me which CURRENT MODEL STREET Porsche cars are faster than a 7:29 on the ring

Theres ONE - the Carrera GT, it costs $450K.

I am speaking not for absolutes, I am speaking about what the manufacturer is offering, bang for buck. Porsche is getting it's a$$ handed to it in this market segment.

Now do you understand the point?

You are comparing a race car with a street car?

What is the TTs ring lap time? What is the GTRs ring lap time? The GTR is cheaper and faster in every regard. Oh and look at the GT-R V spec 7:25 beating the Carrera GT unofficially by 3 seonds.

7:24 Lexus LF-A Concept ~552 PS/~1360 kg 2007-12-28 Auto Express Winding Road Unofficial time measured by bystanders at the track
7:25 Nissan GT-R V-Spec ~551 PS/~1590 kg 2008-04-08 Car Magazine autoblog.com Unofficial time measured by bystanders at the track
7:27.82 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport 650 PS/1230 kg 2007-09 video Semi-wet conditions.
7:28 Porsche Carrera GT 612 PS/1380 kg Walter Röhrl 2004 Autobild 07/04
7:29 Nissan GT-R 480 hp/1740 kg Toshio Suzuki 2008-04-16 *manufacturer claim.Press release Standard run-flat tires. Dry track.
7:32.02* Porsche 997 GT2 2008 530 PS/1440 kg Walter Röhrl 2007 *manufacturer claim.Motor Authority, video Semi-slicks tires.


Glad I am not in Porsche sales

You're missing the point. A Nissan - even one with impressive numbers - is still "just a Datsun". It'll always be "just a Datsun". As such, it'll never have the image, the sex appeal, the upper-crusty snob-appeal (or whatever you want to call it) that enables them to charge 3X or 4X as much for the same car just because a particular name is on it.

And THAT is where the "exotic" guys make their money.

You just made my point for me.. the only reason to buy one is the "look at me, I can waste my money" factor

I'm confused as to your point then. A GT3 gets outperformed by the Nissan but costs 2x the money. Some would argue that the look/style of the Porsche is worth the extra money. Style is worth extra cost to some people. To others it isn't.

There isn't much for Porsche to "respond to." Their cars outperform most cars on the road and look better than the Nissan. There ya have it.

I have seen hondas like that, Bugs too, but you have to tear them down and rebuild them pretty often. They break a lot of CV joints and driveshafts too.

900 hp R34 GTR will run a looooong time between rebuilds, transmission is pretty stout too.

I find it very amusing that we have people claiming that a 997 GT2 or GT3, and even a 993TT are quicker than a GTR. I know this is a Porsche BBS, but c'mon guys, the Ring times don't lie. You're talking factory prepped cars with factory drivers. If Walter Rohrl can't beat the GTR in a GT2, who will? How's life in the land of denial?

Though it may pain some of you physically, from a performance standpoint the GTR is staggering at any price. That it is $70k only makes it more amazing. It's faster than just about everything else out there, and will probably prove to be more reliable than anything from Europe. Yes, it's ugly, but that ugly has a purpose. It has an amazingly low CD (0.27 if I recall correctly), that ugly came from the wind tunnel. Everything on that car is for the single purpose of going fast, even though road tests report that it's very docile and comfortable around town.

I wouldn't buy one. Yes, that's right, I think it's a spectacular car, but I wouldn't buy one. You guys get all worked up about Porsche vs GTR, GTR Ring numbers, etc, but isn't that missing the point? Sure, Porsches have always been fast, but so have many other cars. It's that unique connection to the road, the "oneness" with the cars that makes a Porsche special. The GTR is super-fast, but it's just a rolling mainframe. Everything you do has to go through some sort of algorithm before the car reacts. The car does as much driving as you do, definitely not what Porsche is about.

So why not put a stop to these retarded e-pissing matches? Respect the GTR for what it is, a super-fast exercise in technology. Then take your Porsche for a drive, and remember what makes them so special. Of course, what the hell do I know, I don't have a GTR OR a Porsche.

Porsche has won LeMans fifteen times. Let me know when this Nissan GT-R gets its first win.

Well, you gotta start somewhere.

But, I agree, let's see what they do with it.

Nice post whipped

I agree, for me it is about the experience and so far nothing for me tops the experience and feedback of a torsion bar air cooled rear mounted flat 6. I also prefer the classic styling.

I dont get this experience from a new Porsche, which begs the question - why blindly buy a new Porsche? They aren't reliable cars and they have about as much feedback as BMW


It is amazing how many people loose their mind as soon as you bring up how there maybe be something BETTER

Not LeMans... but not too shabby...

http://www.datsunhistory.com/Racehistory1.html

Physics being physics, any 900hp 6 cyl will need regular attention.

Matt, you're describing the difference between "design" (including architecture - shameless plug) and "engineering" very well.

Something can be "engineered" to be functionally terrific, perform well against quantitative benchmarks and specifications, etc. But a lot of times this results in things that (although functionally good) are boring, unappealing and as exciting as a box of rocks. Good design still does well on the quantitative side and meets its specs, but it speaks to you as a sculptural or artistic objet d'art also. It moves you. It makes your heart beat faster. It takes your breath away.

That's passion. That's the difference.

And yes, there are those among us who think it's worth something and will pay a premium for it.

Think of how utterly soulless and boring the world would be if it were simply all "engineered" and practical. The sex appeal of Porsche is precisely in how impractical they are. Perhaps the ultimate manifestation of this is Ferrari/Lamborghini, with their "over-the-top", obnoxiously bold styling and "in-your-face" colors. They sell. Because they invoke PASSION.

That's where the Japanese cars largely fall on their faces. They're good, reliable, well-made, etc. But they're exciting as a night at home watching "Ishtar".

I guess replacing engines and tramissions in warranty constitues "exciting" exciting that your new Porsche could actually strand you at any time.

You can be rear-ended by some idiot SUV-driving moron at any time too in any vehicle. What's the point here?

yeah, I'm having trouble figuring that out as well...

Seems that we have established that the Nissan is faster and cheaper, and that modern Porsches are more stylish but aren't as reliable as Hyundais or Toyotas.

That about the gist?

That makes me wonder how reliable all those 800/900/1000 hp "tuner" 996/997's I see in Excellence magazine are. ;)

Seems like an argument re what girl is "prettier", if you know what I mean.

One of the best Porsche guys around here told me he loves it when somebody installs a boost controller. He says it's almost a guarantee of more work.

I believe we refer to that world as "Germany".:cool:

Ironic that Porsche comes from there, no?

Also Mies Van Der Rohe, the Bauhaus movement, the Audi R8 and the Cologne Cathedral, but hey - a good stereotype never hurt nobody, right?

;)

You guys are right about one thing. The Nissan has a lower purchase price. We also seem to agree it's uglier than a Porsche.

But this thread is about performance, or at least I thought so. You guys hear about a very impressive Nurburgring time and now you draw the conclusion that a Nissan is faster than Porsches are. I continue to question you guys' intelligence.

First, as I pointed out, this is apples to oranges. The GT-R is being compared to a GT3. The Porsche GT3 is normally aspirated, while the GT-R is a turbo. The Porsche equivalent is called the "GT2." Again, quite frankly, I'd bet a stock 1997 993 Turbo-S would beat the Nissan.

I guess if someone told you a Land Rover has now recorded the fastest Nurburgring time, then you'd.......oh, nevermind.

I just read an interesting fact about the GT-R. Curb weight is said to be just north of 3,800 lbs. You guys still think it's faster than a twin-turbo GT2? And I suppose George W. Bush is a good "president" too, eh?

Can you not read the lap times?

7:25 Nissan GT-R V-Spec ~551 PS/~1590 kg 2008-04-08 Car Magazine autoblog.com Unofficial time measured by bystanders at the track

7:29 Nissan GT-R 480 hp/1740 kg Toshio Suzuki 2008-04-16 *manufacturer claim.Press release Standard run-flat tires. Dry track.

7:32.02* Porsche 997 GT2 2008 530 PS/1440 kg Walter Röhrl 2007 *manufacturer claim.Motor Authority, video Semi-slicks tires.



Oh I see the problem, Porsche had Walter Röhrl driving, that guy sucks

If we just focus on which car is faster, what metrics do you suggest we use to determine which car is "faster"?

Should the 'ring times just be tossed out, or do they deserve some weight? It looks like these lap times were made using exemplary drivers.

I think the general comparisons between a GTR and any Porsche are subjective, but which car is "faster" can generally be objectively determined based upon some set of tests. Which ones should we use?

Best,

I looked up the Nissan on google, I like the front and side view... but from the back it looks like a Chevy.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I've been know to trade a bit of "pretty" for better performance.



This applies to cars too. :D

Supe, the GTR beats a 997 GT2 around the Ring, with a man driving the GT2 who is a GOD on that track. So in what way is the GT2 faster?! Furthermore, are you claiming a 993TT is faster than a 997 GT2? If so, I'd love to know where you are getting your information from.

With a bit more thought, you're claiming that both a 997 GT2 and a 993TT are faster than a GTR. But a Carrera GT is only 1 sec faster than the GTR. So does that mean 997 GT2 = 993TT = CGT? I'd love to see some numbers to support that.

The 996/997 is superior in every way to the 993 chassis.

I'd like to know what he's smoking and where I cand find some

I'm butt man so the ugly rear thing is a deal breaker for me. :cool:

HINT: the lesser time is FASTER

I just watched that whole video and not once did Tokyo get destroyed. i want my six minutes back.

I just watched that whole video and not once did Tokyo get destroyed. i want my six minutes back.

EDIT: Double post. So it is still six minutes not twelve.

no, stick with 12 minutes. Inflation and all...

I'm not dissing the GT-R. I'm not denying the GT-R is competitive with some of the fastest cars on the road today, including Porsches.

But the other thing I'm not doing is.......I'm not reading about bystanders reporting an unofficially VERY fast time for the GT-R and then concluding that Nissan makes a faster car than Porsche does. Every year, somebody writes an article that sounds as if Porsche is getting, or is about to get, it's ass kicked. That's been happening for more than forty years and it's never quite panned out for the challenger(s).

Heck, let's say that the GT-R posted an OFFICIAL time that beats that of any Porsche that can wear a license plate. Then let's say that Porsche decides it wants to defend that specific turf. Next year, you'd see a widebody Cayman with 600 hp and carbon fiber, and the debate would be settled.

Supe, it DID. I know admitting your wrong doesn't come easily.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/01/gt-r-drops-ring-time-down-to-7-29

Let me know when the 600 HP carbon fiber Cayman comes out.;)