You want to compare it to the 917?

Oh, and the 917 was a lot more good looking too.

And 30 years older.

That was a RACE car.

We are talking about a $70K production street car that trumps cars 3x its cost and is 1 second behind the $450,000 Porsche Carrera GT

Oh, and here is the link showing the GT-R V-spec beating the $450,000 Porsche Carrera GT by 3 seconds

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/08/nissan-gt-r-v-spec-lap-times-stun-observers/


Lies all lies, it's a conspiracy... Porsche is the best thing ever, rah rah rah

How does the (10 year older) 959 do? That's production.

Is that a joke? That chassis is nowhere near capable of these times.

You think a 959 has even the slightest possibility of being faster than a current day GT2 or a Carrera GT??

Hey now don't be baggin on my Land Rover. Our '03 Disco got the larger Range Rover motor. I'll pull off the brush guard and rear ladder, tape up the seams and rain gutters, and give that GTR a run ;)

Just curious. It'd be interesting to know where it fits in. I don't expect it would beat a GT3, but I would expect it to be respectable.

For $70k I could buy a nice 993, an Acura NSX and have some $$$ left over. And I'd enjoy the hell out of both of those two cars more than I'd probably enjoy a gussied-up (or perhaps "uglied-up") Datsun.

I think the old Datsun 240ZX was prettier, actually.

I guess I still don't get the point of the post. Is it to get the "faithful" to admit that Porsche makes overpriced/underperforming cars? Or to get Porsche to publicly come out and say, "damn, that Nissan is fast...we're going to try harder."? Or, "we're going to cut our prices to compete with the Nissan."?

Maybe this thread's intended purpose was partially explored previously...http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/401264-will-porsche-able-respond-enough.html?highlight=porsche+respond

Certainly, my question was would Porsche care enough to stretch the performance of their cars. Perhaps consider making the Cayman the uber Cayman. Build something lighter than a GT3 with similar or more hp. Something...

Would it be worth it? After all the GTR gets there by AWD, paddle shifters/DSG, stability control, etc. Computers doing the driving (much like F1 has become). Now, of course, F1 is a parade separated only by aero packages. You won't see drivers get passed because they missed a shift, or locked up the brakes (at least they dont have engine braking and traction control anymore).

Ok, the GTR has a better Ring time than any 997. The GTR will get you very repeatable lap times since a lot of the car is computer control. I would think that drivers of these cars will loose some of the technique since the car may make up for the driver error. For me, I wouldn't care if Nissan, Honda, heck even Kia made a car that went around the Ring in 2 min. I would still blindly want a 911 since they have the racing and civilian heritage of having excellent cars. What Porsche lacks in performance, they more than make up in styling, reliability (mostly), coolness and their own performance stats.

Reliability? Surely you can't be speaking of any Porsche built after 1998?

Peter,

if Porsche made a no holds bared Cayman that wasn't plagued with RMS and IDS failures like the 996/997, I think a lot of us would be jumping all over it, but Porsche doesn't want to compete against themselves and their higher priced models. The Cayman will forever sit right in between the Boxter and the Carrera thanks to the marketing and beancounter mentality controlling the company it is today.

In that thread, though, the best question raised is will Nissan homoligate the GT-R and are we going to see it be a formidable opponent at LeMans; and can it dish it out the full endurance? Every new platform has it's problems but this is one has THE most potential of any street car I have seen in a LONG time. The GT-R is in a different league bang for the buck, the GT-R V surpassing the Carrera GT in performance for 1/5th the money

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210393524.jpg
This is a sweet little car, even better now, with the big brakes

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210393624.jpg
I always thought about getting an NSX too, or a Lotus, kid of the people who live next door to my parents got a Lotus Exige, very sweet, gotta dig the Loti, or is that Lotuses?

The GTR is fugly. The Elise is fugly. I don't care how fast they go, I'd never buy either.

Fast & ugly or hot looking & expensive! I think I've run into this quandary before.

Hmm.. so everybodys #1 priority is looks or is the #1 priority to be able to say you own a "Porsche" and whether it is an overpriced, unreliable, disposable PoS or not is of little to no relevance???

Get over it dude. That thing is hyper ugly. Many people will have no interest in it at all. My all time favorite car I ever owned was a Q45. I'd buy a G35, but not a GTR, just too ugly.

God, the Porsche guys have all turned into BMW guys, time to sell my 911

seems like you're really hung up on what you can "say to others" about your car. What do you care what other people think?

I owned my 911 because it was a time machine. It was not the fastest car in the world, but was pretty reliable considering what I put it through. If I had a bunch of disposable income lying around I would buy a 997 in a heartbeat over this Nissan. Style, grace, and heritage mean more to me than absolute performance. I can't drive the Ring, and I don't street race. I also don't do street cars at the track (they need to have proper safety gear), so what is the point of all that performance? The reality is that you end up driving at about *maybe* 1/5th of the car's capability anyway, and the rest of the time you look at it. I'd sure rather look at a 997 than a GTR.

As for reliable, I question your allegation that RMS is "rampant". What is the failure rate? And isn't that covered under warranty?

People love to piss and moan about what Porsche did or didn't do, what they should or shouldn't do. I guess that's fun too...but it is what it is.

Great cars, I still remember test driving a used '91 Q45. Great fun sitting in a leather lined sedan, watching the smoke billow by as we power braked it.:D

[QUOTE=nostatic;3934863]As for reliable, I question your allegation that RMS is "rampant". What is the failure rate? And isn't that covered under warranty?QUOTE]

What happened when its out of warranty? do you think that kind of poor reliability and longevity is acceptable of a $70K + vehicle?

I dont know why ANY of you are concerned about the looks of the front end of the GT-R , all you'll only ever see the backend, anyways.

what's the RMS failure rate?

Do you track your 82? Or just drive it fast on the street so people will "see your backend"?

I think you've gone a bit to far with this one.

I think it's obvious that the GTR generally outperforms most Porsches. The 'Ring times are significant and that track is an excellent test of any performance car. But, while 8 seconds on a ~3 minute run is a very long time in racing, it's not a long time in a car one drives every day on the street. So, you make some good points on performance if one is only racing his/her car.

But, there are subjective elements that are important to many folks beyond absolute numbers and this is what the folks here have been expressing. There's much more to the street driving experience than absolute numbers. This is why you see cars like the '72 911S and '73 RS still get such high praise from legendary drivers even when tested against modern Porsches.

Implying that a Porsche is "overpriced, unreliable, disposable PoS" and claiming that Porsche owners #1 priority is looks or is the #1 priority to be able to say you own a "Porsche" shows, IMHO, a misjudgment of the actual cars and a misunderstanding of why Porsche owners love their cars.

Porsches are simply not overpriced junk. New models rank extremely high in customer satisfaction surveys, i.e the Boxster ranked #3 in consumer satisfaction by Consumer Reports for 2008. If you can find the Nurburgring lap time equivalent of quality or customer satisfaction to support your position, instead of just problems that are typical of any manufacturer, then maybe you have something.

Looks are important, but looks with a soul is what motivates many Porsche owners. Also, Porsche does have a legendary history and a very competitive present - this has brand value and it is important to many people who buy the cars.

I'll give you the absolute performance numbers part of your argument . . . for now. :) But any road car is so much more than performance statistics on a piece of paper. I never cared if my old '72 911T hot rod was slower on a track than a Toyota Supra Turbo when I was making a purposeless run up the 101 in SoCal.

FWIW.

ur wrong Kurt. Every RMS fails on every car, usually right after the warranty runs out (they designed it that way). Plus they also melt in the rain, and can explode if you look at them the wrong way. More importantly, no matter how fast you go all you see is the back end of other cars. I think it is a poorly designed windshield or something.

please tell me you're 16 so this thread will all make sense...

Ha! :D

I was with the other Todd for a while on the "absolute performance" issue, but his last missive is very telling.

Little chance for a reasonable discussion going forward, IMO.

Best,

I agree, why do you think I drive a 25 year old 911, myself?

What I am getting at is the general Porsche elitist attitude on this board.

I originally post a link showing this competition, people on this board take extreme offense to it.

First they deny that the GT-R outperforms every single Porsche made with the exception of the Carrera GT for 1/2 the price, then even firther denial when shown the GT-R V spec outperforms the Carrera GT for about 1/4th-1/5th the price.

Then with no argument left, basicaly start on that the car is ugly, because there reallt isnt anything left to criticize at that point.

Then this whole thing about what WE would or wouldn't buy ensues about buying used cars, Porsche race cars vs this GT-R street car, etc .when the original point of the post was more from a Manufacturers viewpoint of what how Porsche is going to respond to this.

Finally it ends up with just basical personal attacks to the original poster.

I don't see why everybody is so upset because somebody has just beat Porsche at thier own game.

Competition is healthy, and I feel Porsche needs it to bring their cars to the next level. Hopefully they will make something fast, solid and reliable with the soul, feedback and nimbleness of the old cars.

I get the feeling this guy is one of those "sideways hat/baggy pants" idiots that pulls up next to people at lights and revs their engine and asks them if they want to street race.

That mentality anyway.

I get the feeling this guy is one of those "sideways hat/baggy pants" idiots that pulls up next to people at lights and revs their engine and asks them if they want to street race.

That mentality anyway.

I rest my case, Porsche elitist attitude.

I show a technically superior car and am personally attacked.

Seriously, you've done some name calling and attacking yourself, yes?

I've tried to be fair. SmileWavy

Actually I think some are offended by *your* attitude, and your very narrow view on what constitutes "performance." You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.

You never did answer whether or not you track your car. Just curious as to why you're so interested in "absolute performance", and where you take advantage of all those capabilities. Are you going to buy a GT-R and track it? Or drive it to the local hamburger joint to see and be seen? Neither is right or wrong, but they all play into what constitutes "performance" for an individual.

I frankly don't give a crap what anyone else thinks about my vehicles. But if you do, then that is an important performance criteria for you. If having the fastest bench racing car is going to make you feel good, then you should buy it.

Really? Where?

This thread wasnt about me, it was never about me, what I drive, or what i planed to buy or not buy. Please tell me where I inferred any of this.

i simply posted a TECHNICALY SUPERIOR CAR and everybody went bezerk.

actually, you *implied* it with your post (a person infers when they read something, you imply when you write it). But let's be honest...essentially you were trolling for the "Porsche elitist attitude" that you are so desperate to point out.

The thread becomes about you when you start making those kinds of accusations. I'm just trying to get a little more perspective on why you feel the need to troll like that.

Anything you INFER from my post is something you self generated. Asking if I am 16, or saing I wear probably wear baggy pants and rev my engine at stoplights leaves nothing for me to infer, thatis a personal attack.

Accusations? Everybody went into denial mode, started staying it was ugly when proven wrong, then started atacking the original poster.

That is an elitist attitude. It is the kind of thing I expect from the BMW forum, not the Porsche forum.

I also notice you haven't denied it. ;)

Haven't we been here before? Yeah, Big, Fast and ugly ...but wait, they are close to $90k -http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/401264-will-porsche-able-respond-enough-3.html?highlight=GTR

You continue to play the role of the innocent one, blaming everyone else and painting everyone as "elitist" with your broad brush. Besides being unfair, that's simply wrong.

As I said before, this is where you "lost it", IMO.

Sheesh.

When you say stuff like "what does it matter, you'll only see the back" (paraphrasing) that doesn't ring true, when you are selling the car. ..that is, anyone who would agree, and say "I want one" would certainly have to look at that in the garage (if it would fit in there)

Yes, those performance figures got many of our attentions . .. and then we started looking at the whole package, and .. . yeah, that is not a $90k car. . . and it's size and styling http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...leys/pukey.gif