entitlements

[RoninLB]

no one mentioned pension cost of living increases.

[Hugh R]

I was in Boston a few weeks back and their fire department is being investigated by the FBI, it seems some huge number of retiring fireman over the last 5 years, like 112 out of 118 or some number like that, retired on medical disability. It seems that those 112 all happened to sustain a work related injury while they were substituting at a higher pay grade for their bosses for one or more days.

In Burbank, CA a fireman typically works as much OT in his last year before retiring and the Base+OT becomes his retirement base of which he gets 90% most firemen in Burbank retire at a lot higher monthly nut than they earned working. Can also retire at age 50 with 25 years. Nice, I've been working since 25 and won't be able to retire until I'm 65.

[RoninLB]

NYS just trashed, a few yrs ago, an entrenched FD disability plan of receiving full pay with all associated raises till retirement age.

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

In Burbank, CA a fireman typically works as much OT in his last year before retiring and the Base+OT becomes his retirement base of which he gets 90% most firemen in Burbank retire at a lot higher monthly nut than they earned working. Can also retire at age 50 with 25 years. Nice, I've been working since 25 and won't be able to retire until I'm 65.

The City of Burbank is a member of CalPers. As such, OT does not count toward retirement base pay. Be advised, there is a long list of court decisions that have determined exactly what counts toward retirement base pay, and what does not.

Please get your facts straight.

And for what its worth, the Burbank Fireman could get hired at 45, work 5 years, and retire at 50 with 15% of his base pay plus any other specialty incentives that he may qualify for...

[strupgolf]

And they say that police and firemen dont get paid enough, give me a break. Not today, where almost all cops stay for the "golden 20" and then retire. In my town, firemen "work" 24/on 48 off. There might have been a fire here about 2 years ago, a garage, but now they just follow the ambulance around to fender benders. These payments have to or will stop for all future generations.

[Moses]

A little more about Vallejo, a town on the brink of bankruptcy...

On May 6, 2008, the City Council voted 7-0 to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy, becoming the largest city to do so ever in California. [6] Stephanie Gomes, Vallejo City Councilwoman largely blames exorbitant salaries and benefits for Vallejo firefighters and police officers. Reportedly, salaries and benefits for public safety workers account for 80 percent of Vallejo's general operating budget. 98 firefighters made more than $100,000 and 10 made more than $200,000 including overtime. [7]

Two contributing factors have also been cited: the aforementioned high salaries, and current and future pension outlays, payments of which are likely not sustainable if bankruptcy is to be avoided. [8]. (From Wikipedia)

[widgeon13]

Originally Posted by Moses

A little more about Vallejo, a town on the brink of bankruptcy...

On May 6, 2008, the City Council voted 7-0 to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy, becoming the largest city to do so ever in California. [6] Stephanie Gomes, Vallejo City Councilwoman largely blames exorbitant salaries and benefits for Vallejo firefighters and police officers. Reportedly, salaries and benefits for public safety workers account for 80 percent of Vallejo's general operating budget. 98 firefighters made more than $100,000 and 10 made more than $200,000 including overtime. [7]

Two contributing factors have also been cited: the aforementioned high salaries, and current and future pension outlays, payments of which are likely not sustainable if bankruptcy is to be avoided. [8]. (From Wikipedia)

Is this the fault of the firemen and police for asking for the benefits or the council for approving the packages?

[Moses]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Is this the fault of the firemen and police for asking for the benefits or the council for approving the packages?

First, Police Officers are forbidden by law to join a national labor union. Not so with firefighters. The International Association of Firefighters is part of the AFL-CIO. Which brings to mind the curious name "firefighter". Should we call police officers "crimefighters"? Maybe pilots could be "gravityfighters". Short order cooks could be "hungerfighters". I digress. Anyway, the 2006 30% pay raise and 3%/90% retirement policy was instituted by the state of California. Yet another example of unfunded mandates.

[cmccuist]

Originally Posted by island911

Moses is spot on.

When I was a kid (19~20) I saw what a good gig Fire fighters had. --Working 8 days a month! (but yes, you where only allowed to sleep 8 hr each of those days)-- Of course I pursued the job... I kicked butt on both the written and physical tests, but, much to my disadvantage, being a white male put me at the bottom of the hire list.

Anyway, because of the high competition for the job many guys find whatever volunteer work they can in an effort to "prove" themselves. ( not a good recipe)

Yeah, in my opinion, all one has to do is look at the supply and DEMAND to see just how overpaid that profession is. ...again, we are talking about a job working 8 days a month with retirement after 25 years. And they get to wear that holier than thou badge of "I save babies from danger." --it's a really good gig.

+1!! In Oakland years ago, my brother-in-law scored at the top of the class in the testing, both physical and written, and he got affirmative-actioned out of a job! Went to court to get it fixed, but still got stoned. The court basically said it's ok to discriminate and give someone with lower qualifications the job.

Apparently, weaker, stupider people can still carry you out of a burning building and give you CPR and save your life.

There's no shortage of people trying to get on in California.

[Nathans_Dad]

Makes me wonder if these types of concessions will become national if the Democrats control Congress and the White House.

The Democrats have traditionally gotten a significant amount of their power base from unions. That base is eroding somewhat due to the social stances of the liberal Democrats. I suspect that the Democrats are using these sorts of things to shore up their support...

[varmint]

this is how they manipulate people. of course we'd all like to give money to firefighters. but giving huge benefits packages to government employees unions is how california wound up 40 billion in debt a few year ago.

remember, gray davis upped the prison guard's retirement plan by a few hundred million, while they donated 40,000 to his re election campaign.

[berettafan]

in rural towns where odds of being a star in the real word are nil the smart rednecks look for a paying fire or EMS job. very good pay, very little work (yes, it is life threatening) and nice pensions.

i saw a tax return for a fellow who lost his entire co. in NYC 9/01 at WTC. don't recall his age but i think he was 40 something. pension. no work. just a hair under $100k. he wasn't in that day.

this, IMO, is farking nuts.

using this logic everyone who has ever lost a coworker or family member should be given an extra $8k/month out of the SS till to ease their suffering.

i say bull***** to this. tell me why any US soldier who has seen combat doesn't get this?

honor existing commitments but in the future cities/towns/counties need to be more fiscally responsible.

[widgeon13]

Article in the Albany Times Union just yesterday, $100,000++ for some 866 state workers, some fire and police but also a lot of public servants. Public servants that are making much more than probably 98% of the population when it comes to retirement benefits. Pretty ****ing disgusting.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1391011/pension_creates_6figure_winners/index.html

[fintstone]

I am surprised at how many liberals are bashing their democratic union brethren. Isn't supporting labor unions a big part of the democratic plank anymore? Why this sudden concern with the cost of wealth distribution? Next thing you know...you will be bashing homeless folk. Can't we all just get along?

[Mule]

Obama '08

[RoninLB]

Obama and the Jews
WSJ
May 20, 2008; Page A21

America's Jews account for a mere 2% of the U.S. population. But they have voted the Democratic ticket by margins averaging 78% over the past four election cycles, and their votes are potentially decisive in swing states like Florida and Pennsylvania. They also contribute an estimated half of all donations given to national Democratic candidates.

crop

Finally, there is Israel itself. In the Atlantic interview, Mr. Obama declared that "my job in being a friend to Israel is partly to hold up a mirror and tell the truth," particularly in respect to the settlements. Yes, there are mirrors that need to be held up to those settlements, as there are to those Palestinians whose terrorism makes their dismantlement so problematic. Perhaps there is also a mirror to be held up to an American foreign-policy neophyte whose amazing conceit is that he understands Israel's dilemmas better than Israelis themselves.

[Tobra]

WTF Ronin? For a second I thought my computer skipped to a different thread

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

It's a Ponzi scheme when you get right down to it.

Apparently, if the Government does it, it is not illegal. Seen it a million times

Originally Posted by Moses

I think he's lamenting the grossly misspent PUBLIC MONEY. The firefighters benefit package is an unwarranted and shameful waste of public resources.

Ding, ding

Originally Posted by boba

Who voted for those politicians anyway, and is still putting them in office?
That's who you should turn your anger on. Not the person who took the job, did the work and expected that the contract he was offered be honored.

It may have been a bad deal for the taxpayers but they let it happen, they voted for it over and over.

BTW life is not fair.

mostly Democrats, in California anyway

Originally Posted by fintstone

Firefighters, police, govt employees...if they have such a great deal, why didn't you guys sign up?

Moses...aren't you a doctor?

do you actually read this stuff before you reply?

Originally Posted by milt

That seems pretty far from the point.

You know, I've heard all my life about people who are a lot like some on this thread. I've never really met that many personally because I guess I had nothing in common with them. Both my grandfathers an my dad worked right up until the end. I've never known any other way.

And for chrissakes, let's not find out my ol' buddy the 98K pension man gets SS too. I'd take up arms to stop that.

I would be willing to bet a ton of cash(say 100K a year for 25 years)he gets SS also

Originally Posted by Dottore

Of those options, the only sane one is the last one.

So if it is not what you think it is insane, groovy

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Makes me wonder if these types of concessions will become national if the Democrats control Congress and the White House.

The Democrats have traditionally gotten a significant amount of their power base from unions. That base is eroding somewhat due to the social stances of the liberal Democrats. I suspect that the Democrats are using these sorts of things to shore up their support...

Now you understand why the Dalai Obama makes me concerned about the future

Originally Posted by varmint

this is how they manipulate people. of course we'd all like to give money to firefighters. but giving huge benefits packages to government employees unions is how california wound up 40 billion in debt a few year ago.

remember, gray davis upped the prison guard's retirement plan by a few hundred million, while they donated 40,000 to his re election campaign.

It is $20 billion, and that was a few days ago, in addition to the few years ago episode.

[Moses]

Today the city of Vallejo, a community of 120,000 filed for bankruptcy after failing to renegotiate the police and fire contracts.

[RoninLB]

Bingo... great issue, great mid way point.


Now I would think the game goes to the bankers. The City has to be able to write cheques. If the legalities are finished then outside auditors so the banks can rig some kind of restructuring. It probably won't be their routine outside auditors because they're picked in a bidding process. Only a lousy accounting firm would get involved in gov't accounting and the banks know it. The auditors the bank's picked to do the workout for D Trump's NJ casino was the best boutique in the country. Ivana worked for a publicized $1/year but her expense account had an average $250,000/month for world class clothes.

all above just a rant.. don't take me serious

[Hugh R]

I truly think you're going to see more and more cities going BK to get out of union contracts. I have no problem paying a pension to police and fire, but when they can retire 20 years earlier than me with 100% or more of their last annual salary and full medical?? I don't get that, why should I be forced to pay that for a gubmit worker.