BTW, God doesn't hate people. He hates the conduct.

These groups that try to say otherwise are 'off base'.


People should be kind to one another for starters.
What good will come from attacking someone for their conduct or beliefs?


KT

1) This is the exact issue that the CA court addressed. It's not a man and a woman anymore, it's two people and "love" is the standard. Just so we're clear.

2) BTW - who said anything about love in marriage?

My problem with legalizing gay marriage, is that it helps to legitimize the gay lifestyle and I worry that more young kids might follow that path in life thinking it just as "normal" as traditional marriage between a man and a woman. While I don't "hate" all gay people and can accept that there has always been and always will be a small percentage of the population that is somehow attracted to the same sex, homosexuality will never be the norm in my eyes and flaunting/promoting it goes against the laws of nature IMO.

IOW, I could care less what adults do in their bedrooms, but I don't wan't innocent kids being influenced to think this lifestyle is by any means normal. The key word here for me is NORMAL. I did not bring up religion and it does not play into my opinions on the gay lifestyle.... My view is strictly based on MY definition of what is NORMAL and natural.

good point! i hear this all the time. BUT imagine you yourself trying to be gay..just once...think about it...NOOOOOOO. never happen, right? i couldnt be anything close to gay. maybe, just maybe that is how homosexuals feel about being straight. maybe it just doenst make sense to them at all, just like how you and i feel about being gay. we will never ever know. so i just stay out of it. move along, nothing to see here. i am not walking a mile in gay shoes for science. no thank you. i look like crap in strappy slingbacks..:D i dont think kids just turn gay because it looks good on paper. it has to come from the insides.

Homosexuality is described in both the old testament and new testament as an abhoration, sin, and what God describes as a detestable act. Not to mention it is a sin against nature.

Homosexuality is a psychological disorder and needs to be treated, not embraced as "normal".

The bleeding heart liberal supreme court of California ruled that a recent overwhelming vote to ban gay marriages was unconstitutional.
There will soon be a ballot initiative to change the California constitution and it will pass, then the bleeding heart judges won't be able to interfere with the majority, nature, or God.

BTW, obviously you haven't been paying attention. This isn't about what they want to do in the privacy of their own homes. It isn't about gaining equal rights, they already have that. They already have the right to heterosexual marriage, just like anyone else.
It is about trying to get more rights, so they can gain monetarily from gay marriage. It's a money grab and one more attempt to try and force people to accept an immoral, perverse sexual act as normal.

good to see at least one parent on this board. awful lot of people out there just shrugging their shoulders and going with the crowd because it's easier.

This is my point. I have no issue with the government allowing gay couples to have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples. I just don't think they should be "married". Marriage is between a man and a woman.

BTW, I really cannot get this "two people love each other" thing. There are laws that govern all sorts of relationships. "Two people" can mean two men, two women, a man and a woman, a man and a child, a woman and a child, a brother and a sister, a father and a daughter, etc, etc ,etc.

I'm just pointing out that whether or not two people love each other, there are certain relationships that society has decided are detrimental and thus should be discouraged through laws. Start breaking down those barriers and you get onto a slippery slope.

would you hate your child if he/she was gay? nothing easy about having an open mind.

where exactly does it say that? specify? I ask because having JUST taken a class on human sexuality, I brought this exact thing up...
and it is absolute FACT that the church routinely married same sex couples well into the lat 19th century. It was not really till the economics of industrialization that made the establishment to the "norms" we see today changed that.
at least that is what they teach in college these days...
Personally, I don't think it's right that people cannot marry and be happy because they love someone of the same sex. If I can marry and be happy, why can't they? it would seem like they are being discriminated against if they cannot.

Religion has once again reared it's ugly head and told people how they should live...I just wonder how it was that this came to be? I mean , man made up religion, it would seem reasonable that they made the rules...last i checked churches were run by people, not god himself.

How can he actually "hate conduct"..and how would that be communicated ? He has to do it thru huimans...who add their personal bias and or miscommuicate things to fit their views

(Let me preface this, I like KT..He is bright and stands up for what he beleives in and has alot of good stuff to add ..nothing personal)

Bottom line is that we all do things other dislike, why should people not be allowed to be happy?
maybe we should ban reproduction by poor people..or ban marriage for people under the $75k tax bracket
This is a ridiculous argument that no one can win. It does not legitimize a "lifestyle" or condone it either. What is taught in schools is gonna be a suprise if you think that.

I have taken alot of psych classes, it depeneds on what side of the argumenmt you stand on as to wheather it is a psych disorder or something born...I suspect that it is both a combination of nature AND nurture..and that environmental facters steer people either way. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with people being gay (FYI, I am NOT) and how a person deals with it really affects how they lead their life.

The norm is dictated by nature or what is "natural". While a small percentage of animals in nature occasionally try to hump the same sex, the majority are attracted to the opposite sex.

Anything that I construe as promoting the opposite to the masses be it thru laws or the current trend of every other TV show showing guys making out is ludicrous in my opinion.

The norm is dictated by nature or what is "natural". While a small percentage of animals in nature occasionally try to hump the same sex, the majority are attracted to the opposite sex.

Anything that I construe as promoting the opposite to the masses be it thru laws or the current trend of every other TV show showing guys making out is ludicrous in my opinion.

Nick, We're you looking for specific scriptural verses that denounce homosexuality?

If so, there are lots.


KT

I know a Lesbian couple who have a child. The natural child of one of them. The kid is in good hands. Good kid.

It is also "natural" for humans to f*ck and reproduce by the time they're 16 or 17. Does this mean it should be so?

It is arguably "natural" to hunt and kill other people of different tribes/clans. Should we start killing off our neighbors?

It's a slippery slope. Where does it end? Is it "unnatural" to use medicinal drugs? How about the very practice of medicine at all? Shouldn't we just kill off the weak/old/infirm? That's "natural" after all - it strengthens the species by eliminating the weak members, right? Should we be living in caves instead of constructing our own habitats? Living without electricity and air conditioning? Where would you have one put that "line in the sand" so to speak?

The very definition of "civilization" is to be "civilized", meaning we overcome certain "natural" urges and instincts in order to aspire to a different kind of order that our minds (rather than our instincts) envision. This is why we have laws against murdering our own, having forced sex with as many 15-16 year old girls as possible (it's natural to want to "spread our seed" right?), etc. Because our MINDS have said that even though we might have biological impulses that would otherwise direct our behavior a certain way, we have to put them in check in order to become something ultimately greater.

I think it applies to this too. The "natural" instinct is to distrust anyone who is different from ourselves. It stems from early peoples keeping the tribe or clan protected from foreigners. We are inherently distrustful and xenophobic - it's in our genes. Civilization and cooperation among different people is "unnatural" and requires us to overcome our basic impulses to distrust others and work together.

This is just one more step towards a more enlightened society that accepts others for who they are - not who we want them to be (particularly when "justified" by pointing to made-up "sacred words of the gods" to back it up).

To dislike is fine. Natural even. However when dislike on a personal level for those different than us rises to external words or actions, it's a problem. It's taking a big step backwards against the march of civility towards universal acceptance, understanding, compassion and tolerance.

I say "live and let live" on this one. Give the religious angle a rest - it has absolutely ZERO scholarship in a discussion of this type.

I personally find certain homosexual manifestations of love (overt acts) pretty gross and abhorrent, but I also apply the logic of "love over all" and aspire to the vision of a world consumed with understanding (forward) rather than hate and bigotry (backwards). Ironically this is the core message of a lot of religions, which their so-called "followers" are so adept at rationalizing their way out of following for themselves when inconvenient.

Oh yeah. We may be going to hell in a handcart, but it has very little to do with the gays, IMO.

Let them get their own handcart. Oh wait, I forgot.

We deliver.

In case you didn't notice, there is a VERY LARGE group of people on this earth that believe in a God that is disgusted by homosexuality.

So to say absolutely ZERO is actually just your personal opinion, sir.


KT

Last I checked the majority of people also believed that religion shouldn't be the basis of government policy too.

If you (or everyone else on earth, for that matter) wants to believe in a diety who is disgusted by homosexuality, go right ahead. Just don't go passing laws on the basis of your personal belief/opinion.

I don't discount the fact that people believe what they want to believe (and they should), but to give religion any sort of say in an intellectual discussion is completely ridiculous. ZERO scholarship. I stand by that statement. If you're uncertain as to the exact meaning, look it up.

Don't like homosexuality? Fine, don't pack no fudge. Simple 'nuff.

I happen to agree with you 100%

There is nothing functional about "two daddies."

All of this extreme talk and conjecture about gay marriage leading to bestiality, pedophilia, downfall of society and more is not evidenced by any such results in any other countries that have allowed gay marriage. A non-evidenced straw man at best, hysterical "sky is falling" alarmism.

Amazing that many of the posters defend there anti-gay stance by quoting the bible. This is the same bible that approved polygamy by the way and selling your daughters into slavery.
Always stunning how the religious can pick and choose what they want out of the bible!

Marriage as defined in the US is up to the individuals. You can get married in a church or you can have a civil ceremony. It is your choice. For over a hundred years this has been the case. So the government recognizes both secular and religious marriages. The question is why? What interest does a secular government have in legitimizing marriages? Only one reason, to enable the rule of law.

Inheritance law, tax law, property rights, etc. all are based on marriage law and have been based on marriage for thousands of years. None of these laws are voided by gay marriage.

Anyone who makes the arguments based on bible verses has little to stand on. Morality in the bible is highly suspect, if not downright evil. It has changed and been re-interpreted to fit the current needs many times.


The bible has more verses supporting polygamy than against it.

Genesis 4:19
And Lamech took unto him two wives.
Genesis 16:1-4
Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai ... gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived.
Genesis 25:6
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had....
Genesis 26:34
Esau ... took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite.
Genesis 28:9
Esau .. took ... Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael ... to be his wife.
Genesis 31:17
Then Jacob rose up, and set ... his wives upon camels.
Genesis 32:22
He [Jacob] ... took his two wives, and his two womenservants.
Ex.21:10
If he take him another wife....
Dt.21:15
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated....
Judges 8:30
And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
1 Sam.1:1-2
Elkanah ... had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah.
2 Sam.12:7-8
Thus saith the LORD God of Israel ... I gave thee ... thy master's wives....
1 Kg.11:2-3
Solomon ... had seven hundred wives ... and three hundred concubines.
1 Chr.4:5
And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah.
2 Chr.11:21
Rehoboam ... took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines.
2 Chr.13:21
But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives....
2 Chr.24:3
Jehoiada took for him two wives....
Mt.25:1
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
1 Tim.3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife....
Titus 1:6-7
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless.


Again the bible has more verses supporting slavery than against it. Here is the bible on slavery:


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)



When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)



The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)



All of the above were used to defend some of the worst human atrocities ever. Many Constitutional rights were trampled by using bible verses: interracial marriage, equal rights for women, slavery, gay rights, etc. the list is long and sordid. Where were the supposedly superior moralities from the religious then? What makes you think your stance now is moral? What evidence are you claiming to have? You have no evidence for any moral highground.

Homosexuality is a normal subset of humans. Homosexuality is found in over 450 different varieties of animals. It has existed for as least as long as human written records. Gays have been able to perform in any position at least as well as heterosexual men. From great warriors, to writers, actors, chefs, scientists, engineers, fathers, etc. There is no peer-reviewed study in the last 20 years that support that being gay is a choice. So what is the big deal? Why the resistance to this. Only the lies, hidden history (the Catholic Church allowed homosexual behavior in its ranks for centuries), and a lack of knowledge.

Funny that our greatest gift to the world is democracy which is an ancient Greek invention; an invention from a culture that embraced homosexuality. For example the Spartans encouraged homosexual behavior in their army. They were convinced that it promoted superior unit cohesion that facilitated the amazing military performances the Spartans were famous for.