Part 2

WWII:
ON THE BATTFIELD the Russians beat the Germans. And IF THE BRITISH did not beat the Germans in the air above England, America would not have had a base to launch D-Day.

I never discounted the lend lease help that the US provided. But who did the vast majority of the fighting? Russia did and in the beginning in the West it was England. They paid the huge price of war in their homelands and suffered as we have never done. Let’s look at this lend-lease deal
“The negotiation in 1942 of a Master Lend-Lease agreement with the British included requirements for the United Kingdom to open its empire to free trade—later called free markets. American leaders had deep suspicions that Great Britain remained a major economic rival and so lend-lease was not extended into the immediate postwar period.
During the lend-lease debate, opponents had tried to exclude the Soviet Union from the program. But American strategists knew that only the Red Army could defeat Hitler on the ground, and lend-lease would help do just that. U.S. aid constituted only about 7 percent of what the Soviet Union itself produced during the war, but it did allow the Soviets to concentrate their production in the most efficient manner.”
From: http://www.answers.com/topic/lend-ndash-lease-act?cat=biz-fin

“The largest lend-lease recipients were Great Britain ($31 billion) and the Soviet Union ($11 billion). Incorporated in these figures was the value of goods such as aircraft, weapons, ammunition, clothing, medical supplies, foodstuffs, and raw materials transferred by land, sea, and air.”
From: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005679

BTW the story of 50 destroyers we sent the British is quite enlightening. We demanded 99 year leases on military bases in the British Empire for these 50 old ships (all WW I vintage). These ships were almost useless to the British, but they were desperate times and the British agreed to our terms and tried to take delivery of them.
“These ships were old, ill designed and unstable in rough seas. America struck a hard bargain in this deal.
Britain granted these long leases which allowed the US to build bases on: Antigua, British Guiana, Jamacia (sic), St Lucia, Bermuda, Trinidad, and Newfoundland.
50 Destroyers of the Clemson Class
These old Destroyers were all flush deckers, they had four funnels, and no one could say they were a pretty sight. Eight went off to the Royal Canadian Navy, but all of them needed extensive refits if they were to cope with Atlantic Ocean conditions. They had a huge turning circle, and very narrow sterns which put the propellers(sic) at risk when coming alongside a pier or wharf. In any sort of sea they reportedly rolled alarmingly, and the US Navy warned the British that, as the oil fuel was used up, it was wise to refill the empty oil tanks with sea water to stop the possibility of a ship capsizing. This was an unusual practice for the Royal Navy, who did not take kindly to the possible contamination of salt water in the oil fuel. By 1943, the use made of most of these old ships had been downgraded, the need for them had passed. Eight went off to Russia, with French, Norwegian and Polish sailors manning others.
Conclusion
At the time when Britain was in dire need of additional Escort vessels, these 50 ships filled the void, although they took some time to be refitted up to an acceptable operational level to get into useful service. Britain paid a heavy price for these ships, undoubtedly, it was the United States that reaped the greater reward from this deal, than did Britain.”
From: http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/RoyalNavyTownClassDestroy.html
One was used as a dry dock ramming ship in the raid on Dieppe, being considered as “disposable”.

So, my statement stands. American did not save France in WW II, they did help liberate Europe by means of a minority combat role and the PAID for Lend-Lease program. Please post any evidence that shows the US had the majority role in European combat and that the effort to supply Russia was greater than the 7% as stated. And for good measure please post evidence of French soldier’s cowardice in WWII.

You will note: it is far easier to be the paid "arsenal of democracy" than to do the dirty work.

I have visited battlefields, studied archived national records from Russia, Poland, France, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, England, the US, Italy, Spain, Switzerland and Holland. I have military experience myself and am quite familiar with how it operates. In short I am familiar with the elephant and the myths that surround it.

It's all very obvious when you're not French, eh Tabs?

It's understandable, i guess one needs to construct an alternative history when one is haunted by the specter of national shame.

A fairy tale to grab hold of, like marching DeGaulle into Paris so the French could delude themselves into thinking they'd been liberated by their great Hero.

LOL.

It looks like Sniper is learning something, he isn't disputing but just throwing insults. Good Job RPKESQ!

Pretty funny, considering these facts I presented are taught at West Point. :rolleyes:

But an intellect like yours will surely be able to post evidence (Hint: look up what historians consider as evidence) to shore up your faulty opinions. I'll wait.

Yes, these super patriotic types are long on opinions but always short of facts. That never seems to deter them from loud-mouthed, chest-beating spewing and repeating nonsense. But it is quite enjoyable to see them scramble and retreat when unable to present any peer-reviewed evidence.

They still don't understand the difference between myth and reality, opinion and evidence, blinders-on-view and a holistic approach to history. In short, they'll never give up their fantasy for the brutal truth of reality. There entire world-view depends on (and suffers from) it.

I noticed all the money is off the table now! :p

Tom Selleck for pres. w/ Charleton Heston's corpse as vice.

I'm calling this one PWNED. Stick a fork in him. SmileWavy

RPKQ..didja have to look up all those facts....and you are wonderfull at the SPIN....

Albert Speer when asked why the Germans lost the war said, "What could 20,000 (88mm anti-aircraft) guns have done on the Eastern Front.!" He of course was refering to the Allied bombing campaign against Germany and the fact that Germany had to deploy that many guns to defend against it.

U didn't answer about the Elephant...not that it is a very hard question

You didn't answer about Reinhard Heydrich

And a new question..Ther was one aspect of US military power that was far superior to the Germans...one that gave the US advantage over the Germans in its military campaigning. It is a tactical question.

What did the Germans do with the Paris Gun after WW1..inder the Treaty they were not allowed to have it anymore.


A bit of a subjective question here....Who was the Greatest Fighter Ace of WW1? There were many greats...Werner Voss was an amazing pilot in that lil Forker Triplane...but that is not the answer. Oswald Boleke....father of aerial combat...it would be a good answer but due to an accident he didn't survive.

The fact that the US was the decisive factor in victory in both World wars is incontrovertible.

The only thing left to do now is hurl insults. Always a worthy cause when the subject is a frenchman.

But he's not French. Don't let facts get in your way, though.

The fact that the US was the decisive factor in victory in both World wars is incontrovertible.

The only thing left to do now is hurl insults. Always a worthy cause when the subject is a frenchman.

THE FACTS I STATED, quoted as i stated them (in the form of questions):

These facts are as universally accepted as they are true.

Tabs, I'm sure we could have a wonderful conversation on the minutia of the two World Wars and other historical trivia. But the main points discussed here was the claim that the US bailed out France twice. A blatant untruth. And that France should have a reputation as a cowardly nation. So far I haven't seen any proper evidence for either one of those claims. Popular beliefs and patriotic myths notwithstanding.

But spin? No, just simple facts that too many have ignored far too long. In no way does this diminish those accomplishments of the USA. But there is no reason except for ignorance to promote falsehoods under the guise of patriotism.

BTW my favorite WW I fighter pilot is Werner Voss, But I like Georges Guynemer from France, Frank Luke from America, Eddie Rickenbacker from America (I met him and had several long conversations with him, an amazing man), Godwin Brumowski from Austria-Hungary, Willy Coppens from Belgium, Edward Mannock and William Bishop from England.
Oswald Boelcke from Germany is credited with being the first to establish formal doctrine on aerial combat which is still taught today.

Simply put it was the United States that won WW2 for the Allies...Winston Churchill said after the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December of 1941 that, "the Allies have just won the war."

It was not US superiority in combat arms that won the war it was the INDUSTRIAL MIGHT of the USA that won. The US was the only country able to fight a Global War..one on each side of the world. It was also able to supply its Allies with material support..whether weapons or logistical...

The US Industrial capacity was able to run both Germany and Japan into the ground with a war of attrition. The USSR had to use manpower and space to achieve the same their ends, and they were only fighting the Germans. Stalin was always complaining when will the Allies open a 2nd front...

In July of 1943 Hitler had to remove several Panzer Divisions from the battle of Kursk to counter the Allied invasion of Sicily. They had just gotten to the last line of Soviet defense on the Southern portion of the pincer movement and were on the verge of breaking through. After Kursk the Germans were a spent force.

It generally was a bad move by the Germans to have started that offense. A good idea in March or April a diaster in July of 43.


The answer to the Greatest Fighter Ace of WW1..which btw is another dodge on your part.

AND THE ENVELOPE PLEASE....RENE FONCK....Why second highest scoring Ace in WW1 with 75 confirmed victories and his unofficial tally was 137. But that alone is NOT THE REASON....He was flying in 1914 and he was still flying in 1918, that is the real reason. He rarely ever had a bullet hole in his aeroplane.... That is amazing when you consider that in 1917 the average life of a fighter pilot on the western front was 2 weeks. These guys flew without parachutes, without armour plating and NO self sealing gas tanks...you were literally flying in a flying torch.

The ole Bloody Red Baron..basically never flew alone, after he became famous he usually had 20 other planes flying with him. Everything he shotdown was basically credited to him. He was wounded in the head in July 1917 with 60 victories. While on leave his mother asked him about a picture with his fellow pilots and how they were doing. he was hesitant to answer but finally said they were all dead. He basically knew that sooner or later his number was going to be up.

In the summer of 1918 the Germans started supplying their pilots with parachutes..one Erich Lowenhardt (50 victories)...bailed out but was killed because the parachute didn't open.

When you become a hunter killer at a certain point it is pointless to try and compare who is really better, they are all good.

BTW my favorite is the Voss man as well....

Patriotism does not colour my point of view...I am not a flag waving bible thumping neoconservative. I am Machiavellian..... REAL POLTIK.

That has been your error and you have been careless about it with your presumptions.

Billy Bishop was from Canada with 73....he survived.

Edward Manock (72) was deserted by his father when a child, but he came out after his sons death to claim his VC....

McCudden (56) hit electrical lines and crashed while returning to the front in 1918.

Frank Luke...a wild AZ cowboy who went out in a blaze of glory shooting at the Germans after he crashed landed into a cemetary.

Rickenbacher...Auto Racer..Indy 500 before WW1, Chauffer to Pershing, only spent a couple of months flying combat...founder of TWA and during WW2 crashed in the Pacific and survived a couple of weeeks in a raft beofre being rescued with some of the others that were on board the plane with him...

M21sniper quote:
“You really wish to dispute that it was the Arrival of US forces that sealed the defeat of the Germans in WWI?”

All historical evidence points to the fact that Germany was on her last legs before the Americans could bring much to the battlefield. So, yes, historians do dispute your opinion.Where is your evidence?

M21sniper quote:
“Or that it was US lend-lease (and direct USN involvement as well as several squadrons of US volunteer pilots) that kept the British in the fight in WWII until a truly massive US force had been built up in the UK, and that it was a massively supported and led US invasion force that free'd the continent?”

M21sniper quote:
“BTW, without US lend-lease, the Soviets were cooked too”

M21sniper quote:
“The fact that the US was the decisive factor in victory in both World wars is incontrovertible.”



Again, the amount of help given to the Russians pales by comparison as to what the Russians did by themselves ( US aid equaled 7% of Russian production). The figures don’t lie. But you do. Where is your evidence that Germany would have won without the US direct combat intervention in the West? Russia did the vast majority of the dirty work. Even until the last days of the war, German units were sent to the Western front to rest and re-equip.

Of approximately 224 American RAF volunteers, most did not bear any burden in defending England in the Battle of Britain.

“This book is not an attempt to make these American heroes; some were and others were not. While in the RAF, they did not set records for the number of German planes they shot down. In fact, most did not shoot down any. They were not the heroes of the Battle of Britain – only seven flew in that battle.”
By: Phillip D. Caine, US Air Force Academy, 1991

It seems the established military historians in our own armed forces do not agree with your opinions.

M21sniper quote:
“Or that the Americans had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they could fight against the British and win several major battles with no french assistance during the revolution?”

“And we would have won without them anyway, it would've just taken longer.”

“But beyond that, American independence was inevitable. The US defeated the british on land using almost entirely American men and materiel my friend. The biggest contribution of france in the entire war was in blockading the british at Yorktown so that Cornwallis could not escape.”

“But make no mistake, the British were already defeated, whether Cornwallis escaped from Yorktown or not. The real struggle and moments of doubt had occured- and been overcome- long before the french had managed to provide much in the way of materiel or manpower support at all. It was the early dark years, the years that the US faced alone, that even made the rest possible.”





Really? Let’s review some documented facts.

The French Alliance
The year 1777 marked the turning point of the war in favor of the American cause. France, defeated by Great Britain in 1763, had been sending money and supplies secretly to the colonists since the beginning of the Revolution. The American victory at Saratoga and the fight waged by Washington at Germantown convinced the French that the Americans now had a good chance of winning the war. In February 1778, France recognized the independence of the colonies and signed a treaty of commerce and alliance with the new nation. Thereafter, French support for the U.S. with arms, clothing, and money was open rather than clandestine, and Washington's great hope for French naval assistance off the American coast would soon be realized. A French fleet commanded by Charles Hector Théodat, comte d'Estaing (1729-94), sailed for America in April 1778.

At the beginning of 1779, the Americans were no longer fighting alone against Great Britain. Spain had joined France, and Britain faced the prospect of a major European war. Consequently, more and more British naval and military forces would be taken away from the war in America.

Washington had been greatly encouraged by the arrival (July 1780) in Newport, R.I., of about 6000 French troops under Gen. Jean Baptiste de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau.

Washington was convinced that British public opinion definitely was turning against continuing the American war. One more British military disaster such as that at Saratoga would bring irresistible pressure on the king and his ministers to make peace and recognize American independence. Washington knew that British armies could not stay in the interior but always had to return to the seacoast for supplies. He had patiently tried to trap the British army between the American land forces and a superior French fleet off the coast. If this could be done for a sufficient period of time the American forces could compel another massive British surrender.
Fortunately for the Americans, French ministers, eager to avenge the loss of their colonial empire to Great Britain, had labored to build the French navy to the highest level of efficiency in ships and in training for war.

In September 1779 the fleets and armies of France and Spain attacked the British fortress of Gibraltar. Great Britain could not afford, either strategically or economically, to lose its precious gateway to the Mediterranean. Because Gibraltar could be reinforced and supplied only by sea, its support became the most important responsibility of the British fleet.

The standard British strategic principle in a war with France was to maintain overwhelmingly superior fleets and to blockade the two principal French ports at Brest on the Atlantic and at Toulon on the Mediterranean. If a French fleet went to sea, it was relentlessly pursued. In 1781, however, the Royal Navy did not have enough ships of the line to blockade both French ports and at the same time to supply the garrison at Gibraltar, which required continuous fighting to break through the allied fleets off that port. The escape of the French fleet from Toulon in 1778 was one result of British naval weakness. In 1781, when Gibraltar was especially hard pressed, the admiralty had to leave Brest unguarded also, so 29 French ships of the line under Adm. François Joseph Paul, comte de Grasse, were able to sail from Brest on March 22, bound initially for the West Indies but with orders to be off the American coast in July and August.

On August 14 Washington received word that de Grasse was bringing the French fleet to Chesapeake Bay. He immediately decided to attack Cornwallis at Yorktown, Va. The troops of Washington and Rochambeau marched south, leaving a containing force to watch Clinton in New York. De Grasse's fleet arrived at the Chesapeake capes on August 30, drove off a British fleet under Adm. Thomas Graves (1725?-1802), and established a tight blockade of Cornwallis's army. Some 16,000 American and French troops and Virginia militia, under Washington's command, laid siege to Yorktown. Cornwallis made several vain attempts to break through allied lines, but on Oct. 19, 1781, he was obliged to surrender.

From; http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_ type_id=697&display_order=1&sub_display_order=2&mi ni_id=1075



And of course my all time favorite m21sniper “I am a complete idiot” quote:
“I am sure i know more about the history of warfare than 10 of you put together frenchie.”


Yes , we can all see that you are really gifted in that special way when it comes to military history!

M21sniper quote:
“You really wish to dispute that it was the Arrival of US forces that sealed the defeat of the Germans in WWI?”

All historical evidence points to the fact that Germany was on her last legs before the Americans could bring much to the battlefield. So, yes, historians do dispute your opinion.Where is your evidence?

M21sniper quote:
“Or that it was US lend-lease (and direct USN involvement as well as several squadrons of US volunteer pilots) that kept the British in the fight in WWII until a truly massive US force had been built up in the UK, and that it was a massively supported and led US invasion force that free'd the continent?”

M21sniper quote:
“BTW, without US lend-lease, the Soviets were cooked too”

M21sniper quote:
“The fact that the US was the decisive factor in victory in both World wars is incontrovertible.”



Again, the amount of help given to the Russians pales by comparison as to what the Russians did by themselves ( US aid equaled 7% of Russian production). The figures don’t lie. But you do. Where is your evidence that Germany would have won without the US direct combat intervention in the West? Russia did the vast majority of the dirty work. Even until the last days of the war, German units were sent to the Western front to rest and re-equip.

Of approximately 224 American RAF volunteers, most did not bear any burden in defending England in the Battle of Britain.

“This book is not an attempt to make these American heroes; some were and others were not. While in the RAF, they did not set records for the number of German planes they shot down. In fact, most did not shoot down any. They were not the heroes of the Battle of Britain – only seven flew in that battle.”
By: Phillip D. Caine, US Air Force Academy, 1991

It seems the established military historians in our own armed forces do not agree with your opinions.

M21sniper quote:
“Or that the Americans had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they could fight against the British and win several major battles with no french assistance during the revolution?”

“And we would have won without them anyway, it would've just taken longer.”

“But beyond that, American independence was inevitable. The US defeated the british on land using almost entirely American men and materiel my friend. The biggest contribution of france in the entire war was in blockading the british at Yorktown so that Cornwallis could not escape.”

“But make no mistake, the British were already defeated, whether Cornwallis escaped from Yorktown or not. The real struggle and moments of doubt had occured- and been overcome- long before the french had managed to provide much in the way of materiel or manpower support at all. It was the early dark years, the years that the US faced alone, that even made the rest possible.”





Really? Let’s review some documented facts.

The French Alliance
The year 1777 marked the turning point of the war in favor of the American cause. France, defeated by Great Britain in 1763, had been sending money and supplies secretly to the colonists since the beginning of the Revolution. The American victory at Saratoga and the fight waged by Washington at Germantown convinced the French that the Americans now had a good chance of winning the war. In February 1778, France recognized the independence of the colonies and signed a treaty of commerce and alliance with the new nation. Thereafter, French support for the U.S. with arms, clothing, and money was open rather than clandestine, and Washington's great hope for French naval assistance off the American coast would soon be realized. A French fleet commanded by Charles Hector Théodat, comte d'Estaing (1729-94), sailed for America in April 1778.

At the beginning of 1779, the Americans were no longer fighting alone against Great Britain. Spain had joined France, and Britain faced the prospect of a major European war. Consequently, more and more British naval and military forces would be taken away from the war in America.

Washington had been greatly encouraged by the arrival (July 1780) in Newport, R.I., of about 6000 French troops under Gen. Jean Baptiste de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau.

Washington was convinced that British public opinion definitely was turning against continuing the American war. One more British military disaster such as that at Saratoga would bring irresistible pressure on the king and his ministers to make peace and recognize American independence. Washington knew that British armies could not stay in the interior but always had to return to the seacoast for supplies. He had patiently tried to trap the British army between the American land forces and a superior French fleet off the coast. If this could be done for a sufficient period of time the American forces could compel another massive British surrender.
Fortunately for the Americans, French ministers, eager to avenge the loss of their colonial empire to Great Britain, had labored to build the French navy to the highest level of efficiency in ships and in training for war.

In September 1779 the fleets and armies of France and Spain attacked the British fortress of Gibraltar. Great Britain could not afford, either strategically or economically, to lose its precious gateway to the Mediterranean. Because Gibraltar could be reinforced and supplied only by sea, its support became the most important responsibility of the British fleet.

The standard British strategic principle in a war with France was to maintain overwhelmingly superior fleets and to blockade the two principal French ports at Brest on the Atlantic and at Toulon on the Mediterranean. If a French fleet went to sea, it was relentlessly pursued. In 1781, however, the Royal Navy did not have enough ships of the line to blockade both French ports and at the same time to supply the garrison at Gibraltar, which required continuous fighting to break through the allied fleets off that port. The escape of the French fleet from Toulon in 1778 was one result of British naval weakness. In 1781, when Gibraltar was especially hard pressed, the admiralty had to leave Brest unguarded also, so 29 French ships of the line under Adm. François Joseph Paul, comte de Grasse, were able to sail from Brest on March 22, bound initially for the West Indies but with orders to be off the American coast in July and August.

On August 14 Washington received word that de Grasse was bringing the French fleet to Chesapeake Bay. He immediately decided to attack Cornwallis at Yorktown, Va. The troops of Washington and Rochambeau marched south, leaving a containing force to watch Clinton in New York. De Grasse's fleet arrived at the Chesapeake capes on August 30, drove off a British fleet under Adm. Thomas Graves (1725?-1802), and established a tight blockade of Cornwallis's army. Some 16,000 American and French troops and Virginia militia, under Washington's command, laid siege to Yorktown. Cornwallis made several vain attempts to break through allied lines, but on Oct. 19, 1781, he was obliged to surrender.

From; http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_ type_id=697&display_order=1&sub_display_order=2&mi ni_id=1075



And of course my all time favorite m21sniper “I am a complete idiot” quote:
“I am sure i know more about the history of warfare than 10 of you put together frenchie.”


Yes , we can all see that you are really gifted in that special way when it comes to military history!

Tabs, that observation was not directed at you. So don't despair, I still will discuss things with you. I truly have a hard time picking anything or anybody as the best in such a complex environment as war. :D

Many military discussion sites are full of posters arguing about why their choice of plane, weapon, person, etc. was best. It seems to be the biggest time wasting activity on those sites. I will not venture into that territory. We all have opinions but I like facts.SmileWavy