Surfs up. Christopher Hitchens goes waterboarding

[Rick Lee]

Byron, those freedom fighters don't have to play by the rules. And it's always America's fault anyway.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Byron, those freedom fighters don't have to play by the rules. And it's always America's fault anyway.

To take a step back, though, just because they do it (torture), that doesn't make it acceptable for us to do it in return. It like using the logic that we should allow the police to molest the children of child molester because, hey, "they do it too".

Now, before anybody jumps down my throat, I'm only trying to make a point. IMHO, the real thing that needs to be discussed here is how effective is torture at obtaining reliable, useful information? If someone was holding my daughter hostage, for instance, and I had someone else in my possession that knew where she was, you can bet that I would be tempted use any means necessary to extract that information so I understand the need to extract information. I have read alot of information, though, that suggests that torture isn't a great way to gain reliable info and that it also carries with it negatvie reprocussions.

We can argue all day long the definitions in the GCs, but in the end, is it the right thing to be doing?

[Nathans_Dad]

Here's a thought. All the detainees should be released from the military prisons and subjected to "due process" through the systems of their home countries. Wonder which they would prefer?

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by IROC

To take a step back, though, just because they do it (torture), that doesn't make it acceptable for us to do it in return. It like using the logic that we should allow the police to molest the children of child molester because, hey, "they do it too".

Now, before anybody jumps down my throat, I'm only trying to make a point. IMHO, the real thing that needs to be discussed here is how effective is torture at obtaining reliable, useful information? If someone was holding my daughter hostage, for instance, and I had someone else in my possession that knew where she was, you can bet that I would be tempted use any means necessary to extract that information so I understand the need to extract information. I have read alot of information, though, that suggests that torture isn't a great way to gain reliable info and that it also carries with it negatvie reprocussions.

We can argue all day long the definitions in the GCs, but in the end, is it the right thing to be doing?

Mike you make a valid point, but what is your alternative? I'm being serious here, how do you expect to get information out of prisoners who in some cases would rather die than give up that info? It's not like criminals in the US where you can make a "deal". Telling a jihadist that we will put him up in a cushy house in Vegas just isn't going to do the trick.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by IROC

To take a step back, though, just because they do it (torture), that doesn't make it acceptable for us to do it in return. It like using the logic that we should allow the police to molest the children of child molester because, hey, "they do it too".

When and where have we done anything remotely similar to those tactics in the al Qaeda training manual? How in the world do you equate some idiot soldiers taking photos of Iraqi detainees in embarassing positions with getting dragged to death behind a car, burned with an iron, drilled, shocked, etc.?

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Mike you make a valid point, but what is your alternative? I'm being serious here, how do you expect to get information out of prisoners who in some cases would rather die than give up that info? It's not like criminals in the US where you can make a "deal". Telling a jihadist that we will put him up in a cushy house in Vegas just isn't going to do the trick.

Well, for sure if the answer was simple this thread wouldn't exist. I don't have the answer. I wish I did. I admit that I am naive in that I have a hard time understanding the mentality of these people (the radical extremists). I don't have the answer, but do fear that our tactics make us no better than them.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

When and where have we done anything remotely similar to those tactics in the al Qaeda training manual? How in the world do you equate some idiot soldiers taking photos of Iraqi detainees in embarassing positions with getting dragged to death behind a car, burned with an iron, drilled, shocked, etc.?

How do you know what we really do? How do you really know what occurs at the hands of those people that are the subjects of rendition?

I never equated anything, BTW.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by IROC

How do you know what we really do? How do you really know what occurs at the hands of those people that are the subjects of rendition?

I never equated anything, BTW.

How do you know what we do? Why do you assume the worst? I'm pretty sure that, if we had some torture manual like al Qaeda's, you know, where it's a national policy to inflict extreme pain and suffering just because they're al Qaeda, well, someone would leak that to the press. A few soldiers getting out of line (and not even torturing those Iraqis) does not exactly consitute a national torture policy.

We've released hundreds if not thousands of detainees between Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo. I'm not aware of any who ran to the media to show off their torture scars. And I'm also not aware of any Americans ever released by the terrorists. Some escaped or were rescued, but none were released.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

How do you know what we do? Why do you assume the worst?

I don't know. I also do not assume the worst, but I also know that we - as armchair idiots sitting behind keyboards all day - don't really know what happens behind every closed door. If this country is at the point it is discussing waterboarding and trying to legitimize its use, then I fear we are already on the slippery slope. Purely my opinion.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by IROC

If this country is at the point it is discussing waterboarding and trying to legitimize its use, then I fear we are already on the slippery slope. Purely my opinion.

You've already heard from a few Pelicans here who were waterboarded in training many years before we'd even heard of al Qaeda. And they lived to tell about it here on PPOT. I'll make the wild guess those same guys would rather be waterboarded anyday than have anything in those drawings Byron posted done to them.

[Racerbvd]

If you really want to torture someone, make them listen to Rap & disco

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

You've already heard from a few Pelicans here who were waterboarded in training many years before we'd even heard of al Qaeda. And they lived to tell about it here on PPOT. I'll make the wild guess those same guys would rather be waterboarded anyday than have anything in those drawings Byron posted done to them.

So waterboarding is OK, because even though it is torture, it's not really that bad? It's OK because it's not nearly as bad as being dragged behind a car? To me, that is a scary rationalization. Maybe I "can't handle the truth".

Like I said earlier, I think a better direction for this discussion is "does it work"? Is torture the best tool in the toolbox for extracting reliable, useful information? Has anyone here seen the movie "Rendition"? It's just a movie, I know, but I would be surprised if it was completely off-base as to what goes on.

[Rick Lee]

Yes, I'm fine with waterboarding. We all know it broke KSM and that's good enough for me. I don't want to treat al Qaeda detainees well. I want them to suffer badly. They welcome death. They don't welcome torture.

[Nathans_Dad]

Sorry, who said waterboarding was torture again? Did we agree on that? I didn't think so.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by IROC

Like I said earlier, I think a better direction for this discussion is "does it work"? Is torture the best tool in the toolbox for extracting reliable, useful information? Has anyone here seen the movie "Rendition"? It's just a movie, I know, but I would be surprised if it was completely off-base as to what goes on.

You are looking to a f'ing movie as a buttress for your position

WB'ing is not torture. What has become torture to me is the moral equivocation.

Has anyone seen the movie, 'The Longest yard' It's just a movie, I know, but I would be surprised if it was completely off-base as to what goes on in Prison sports. I am outraged.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by IROC

To take a step back, though, just because they do it (torture), that doesn't make it acceptable for us to do it in return. It like using the logic that we should allow the police to molest the children of child molester because, hey, "they do it too".

Now, before anybody jumps down my throat, I'm only trying to make a point. IMHO, the real thing that needs to be discussed here is how effective is torture at obtaining reliable, useful information? If someone was holding my daughter hostage, for instance, and I had someone else in my possession that knew where she was, you can bet that I would be tempted use any means necessary to extract that information so I understand the need to extract information. I have read alot of information, though, that suggests that torture isn't a great way to gain reliable info and that it also carries with it negatvie reprocussions.

We can argue all day long the definitions in the GCs, but in the end, is it the right thing to be doing?

Ridiculous. Gitmo should feed 'em beanie weenies, give em a unlimited korans & no toilet paper. Ahmed, you got a decision to make. Remember, fighting with no uniform is a death sentence, and has been for a long time. Any consideration we give them is out of the kindness of our hearts. The only ones upset are muslims & lefties, coincidence? Both are enemies of America!

[FOG]

Originally Posted by stuartj

Im insinuating nothing. Im stating facts.

The US Defence forces have a duty of care to its employees and a soldier has a reasonable expectaion that his employer- hazardous duty and accident notwithsatnding- wont kill him.

A detainee has no such expectation- and thanks to "unlawful combatant"- also has no acess to any form of due process, nor does there appear to be any siuch duty of care.

Stuart,

You are stating bald faced lies and have zero knowledge of care nor transport of prisoners, whether they are legal, illegal, or unlawful.

Access to due process exists and is exercised during the process, research of facts helps with comprehension. Due process that moronic idiots want is another thing entirely.

S/F, FOG

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

You are looking to a f'ing movie as a buttress for your position

So, you haven't seen the movie, I take it? The point from the movie that I thought was relevant was that the guy doing the torturing didn't care whether the guy being tortured gave up any information or not - he was just there to do a job. In other words, the torturing wasn't working, but the guy didn't care. I don't think there was any waterboarding in the movie.

You guys are too quick to call names and automatically label someone as an idiot if they don't agree with you. I was actually attempting to have a rational discussion on this. Nevermind. Pretty soon Mule will call me a lefty or something.

[FOG]

Originally Posted by IROC

To take a step back, though, just because they do it (torture), that doesn't make it acceptable for us to do it in return. It like using the logic that we should allow the police to molest the children of child molester because, hey, "they do it too".

Now, before anybody jumps down my throat, I'm only trying to make a point. IMHO, the real thing that needs to be discussed here is how effective is torture at obtaining reliable, useful information? If someone was holding my daughter hostage, for instance, and I had someone else in my possession that knew where she was, you can bet that I would be tempted use any means necessary to extract that information so I understand the need to extract information. I have read alot of information, though, that suggests that torture isn't a great way to gain reliable info and that it also carries with it negatvie reprocussions.

We can argue all day long the definitions in the GCs, but in the end, is it the right thing to be doing?

IROC,

There are vast differences between torture (see Racer’s post for a mild view) and harsh interrogation methods. You are already defining SERE methods as torture, which is new wave PC double speak and not in accordance with history.

I have had ITT (Interrogator Translator) teams work for me and while I had to get smart quick it did not in any way shape or form make me an effective Interrogator. Lack of skill by the Interrogator does not mean the technique(s) are ineffective.

S/F, FOG

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by IROC

So, you haven't seen the movie, I take it? The point from the movie that I thought was relevant was that the guy doing the torturing didn't care whether the guy being tortured gave up any information or not - he was just there to do a job. In other words, the torturing wasn't working, but the guy didn't care. I don't think there was any waterboarding in the movie.

You guys are too quick to call names and automatically label someone as an idiot if they don't agree with you. I was actually attempting to have a rational discussion on this. Nevermind. Pretty soon Mule will call me a lefty or something.

I saw the movie. I also did not call anyone a name...I simply disagreed with you.

There is a huge body of learned discussion that calls into question information gleaned from torture...there is also a counter argument that posits the information, if the informant is held for long periods of time, is relevant.

A rational discussion, IMHO, never includes a reference to a movie. And I say again, I never call anyone names...