Shoulda used a Porsche...

[Danny_Ocean]

From today's paper:

Plane in Deadly Crash Was Not Using Aircraft Engine

By Rafael A. Olmeda | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
July 9, 2008

The pilot who died when his small experimental plane crashed at North Perry Airport recently had replaced its engine with one from a Chevrolet Corvette, a mechanic says, a conversion the plane's manufacturer said Tuesday it frowned on.

It's not clear whether the engine swap had anything to do with Monday evening's crash that killed Douglas Pohl, 57. The practice of converting a car engine for use in aircraft is not against the law, not uncommon, and not without controversy.

Jose Obregon, a National Transportation and Safety Board investigator, said a preliminary report on the cause of the crash will be issued within a week. The agency will look at the engine, fuel systems, airworthiness, the weather and a host of other possible contributing factors.

"We look at everything," Obregon said.

Pohl was flying a Lancair IV-P built from a kit when the plane crashed shortly after takeoff around 6 p.m. He was the only one on board and no one on the ground was hurt.

Although his name has not been officially released, family members confirmed Pohl was the pilot. He lived in Jupiter and worked as a pathologist in Miramar.

Larry Cappolino, a mechanic with a company at the airport, said Pohl recently replaced the plane's engine with a motor taken from a Corvette. He said he met Pohl about a month or two ago, when Pohl was troubleshooting a fuel-delivery problem with the plane.

Timothy Ong, general manager of Oregon-based Lancair International, said automobile engines are not designed to withstand the levels needed to power even a small airplane.

"It is not something we recommend," Ong said.

Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen said planes with converted engines need to meet specific standards to obtain airworthiness certificates, while plane engines are certified before they're sold. The certificate for Pohl's plane listed the engine type as unknown, which Bergen said is typically an indicator that it's a converted engine.

But experimental airplane enthusiasts said conversions are less expensive and can still be safe when proper guidelines are followed.

"It's fairly common throughout the experimental aviation community," said Patrick Panzera, editor of Contact magazine, which caters to amateur airplane builders and pilots.

By his estimate, fewer than 10 percent of experimental planes use automobile engines.

Car engines cost roughly $5,000 to buy and another $5,000 to convert for airplane use, Panzera said.

A small airplane engine can cost two to three times that amount. The fuel to run a converted car engine is about $1 per gallon cheaper than plane fuel, and it costs less to rebuild a car engine than a plane engine, Panzera said.

Statistics were not available Tuesday on the number or percentage of plane crashes that involved converted engines.

According to the Experimental Aircraft Association, the crash rate for amateur-built aircraft is less than 1 percent higher than professionally built planes.

Panzera said people who build their planes and use car parts are also likely to take risks that might lead to accidents, but he didn't think converted engines are always to blame.

Pohl's family in Jupiter and co-workers at his office in Miramar declined to comment Tuesday.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Cripes, if the guy could afford a Lancair, you'd think he could afford a good Lycoming.

I don't understand people sometimes. . . I really don't.

[rouxroux]

IMHO I think he probably meant the engine was from a Corvair, not a Corvette. I have sold a 2 110 engines to folks who have used them in kit planes, they are a common substitution in the EAA world. www.flycorvair.com

[widgeon13]

Some Seabee's have been converted to LS-1 Corvette engines and they seem to perform very nicely in that aircraft.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by rouxroux

IMHO I think he probably meant the engine was from a Corvair, not a Corvette. I have sold a 2 110 engines to folks who have used them in kit planes, they are a common substitution in the EAA world. www.flycorvair.com

We're not talking about an ultralite here, the Lancair 4 is a high performance composite kit plane. Standard engine is a large flat-6 Continental IO-550 making 350 HP, it cruises at 330 MPH (by their website). I agree with Jeff, pretty stupid to buy an expensive kit plane, then cheap out on the engine.

Aircraft engines are hugely expensive because of the R&D and certification work that goes into them. They have to meet stringent FAA requirements, and are designed for redundancy. They're also designed to work in a much different environment than a car, often spending large time periods at the same RPM, and experiencing a wide range of temperatures. Car engine in a plane = not smart.

[Jims5543]

These guys offer the parts necessary to convert a rotary engine for a plane.

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/


They seem to know their stuff, their apex seals are sought after in the rotary world, I wanted to buy a set when I was rebuilding my engine but they were backordered so I just went with OEM.

They also make a nifty engine oiler that a lot of street guy use, I still prefer to premix.

[Tim Hancock]

While I am not a big fan of auto engine conversions, this guy was not neccesarily "cheaping out". There are plenty of very high horsepower conversions out there and many can cost a fortune. No one posting here has a clue about this guys actual set-up myself included.

FWIW, the most BASIC difference between old school aircraft engines and modern car engines is that aircraft engines are designed to make their max power at 2500-2700 rpm which is about the max rpm that you can spin a propellor at without having the tips go supersonic.
Auto engines are pretty much designed to maked their max rated power at double that rpm, yet are designed to spend most of their life running at a lower rpm putting along at highway speeds. To use an auto engine on an aircraft efficiently, one must build a lightweight yet very robust gear reduction unit to bolt the prop to and then hope that the auto engine will last a long time running at 4000-5000 rpm for it's whole life in the airplane.

That said, I have seen very well executed expiremental aircraft and I have seen poorly built ones. I would bet a lot of money that this guy cut no corners on this particular aircraft. Shiit happens, engines (even certified ones) quit, planes crash, cars crash, sometimes people die while enjoying their hobbies.

[Seahawk]

Thanks, Tim.

As I have stated before, my goal is to build an RV-8 with my son. He starts on his private pilots license next year

I have been a member of EAA for almost twenty years and have been to Oshkosh twice in the last twenty years and still the engine selection has been the most difficult...I wax and wane between aircraft engines, certified diesel engines and auto conversions.

As Tim mentioned, there are some really well executed engine kits from the firewall forward.

We'll see.

I thought the assumptions in the article were off the mark.

[Tim Hancock]

[QUOTE=onewhippedpuppy;4049845]

Aircraft engines are hugely expensive because of the R&D and certification work that goes into them. They have to meet stringent FAA requirements, and are designed for redundancy. QUOTE]

The basic designs of most of the Lycomings and Continentals have been around for years, so R&D and certification work is not really a good reason for the stupid high costs, but liability, quality control and the relatively small number of engines produced compared to auto engines are very significant factors in why these things cost so d@mned much. Last time I checked a brand new Lycoming IO-360 (200hp) for the plane I am building was around $26,000 Too rich for my blood so I will be rebuilding a used IO-360 engine and will have maybe 10-15k in it if I am lucky.

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I thought the assumptions in the article were off the mark.

You must consider the source. A two-bit reporter at a two-bit newspaper in a Third World country (SoFLA) where, if you didn't sensationalize, the general public wouldn't look twice at your headlines.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Tim, I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that R&D and cert work are the reason we don't see more new engine designs.

Paul, I still volunteer to be your son. I vote for a Thielert (sp?) or similar diesel, if you can deal with hanging that extra weight on the nose. The lower fuel burn and ability to use Jet-A makes them an interesting option. RVs are cool planes, I can't imaging a better father-son project.

Any of you guys going to Oshkosh? If my grandfather goes, I'll probably try to make time to ride up with him in his Bonanza. Too bad Oshkosh always falls on my anniversary, I'll have to negotiate something with the wife.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Danny_Ocean

You must consider the source. A two-bit reporter at a two-bit newspaper in a Third World country (SoFLA) where, if you didn't sensationalize, the general public wouldn't look twice at your headlines.

Ever read/watch a media report about aviation WITHOUT finding errors? Hell, they rarely even get the aircraft type right.

[JayG]

My neighbor has an rv7 and showed me videos of STi engines swapped in. Pretty cool but not necessarily faster. I dunno about a vette engine humming at 3k for hours on end.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Thanks, Tim.

As I have stated before, my goal is to build an RV-8 with my son. He starts on his private pilots license next year

I have been a member of EAA for almost twenty years and have been to Oshkosh twice in the last twenty years and still the engine selection has been the most difficult...I wax and wane between aircraft engines, certified diesel engines and auto conversions.

As Tim mentioned, there are some really well executed engine kits from the firewall forward.

We'll see.

I thought the assumptions in the article were off the mark.

As you and I are fully aware, the RV series of airplanes are very good airplanes and provide much better performance for the money than any certified airplanes. Most use standard aircraft engines (Lycoming 320's and 360's) and do quite well with them although there are some with auot conversions. While I have flown behind snowmobile and car engines, I personally would feel a bit more comfortable long term with the Lycomings in that type of aircraft, but I take no issue with those who choose to experiment with new technology.

The latest trend in the big buck Lancair IV types seems to be going with installs of the small turbo prop set-ups.... not well suited for us relatively low altitude pleasure aircraft, but d@mn good for going high and fast.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Any of you guys going to Oshkosh? If my grandfather goes, I'll probably try to make time to ride up with him in his Bonanza. Too bad Oshkosh always falls on my anniversary, I'll have to negotiate something with the wife.

For the first time in over ten years, I will be driving to Oshkosh instead of flying in

I am taking my wife and kids this year for a few days on the return trip from a family get-together in Michigan's UP.

My wife and kids have not been there for 7 or so years, so I guess I can live with driving and camping in Camp Scholler this year, besides I got a nice "new to me" truck that needs a maiden voyage.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Any of you guys going to Oshkosh? If my grandfather goes, I'll probably try to make time to ride up with him in his Bonanza. Too bad Oshkosh always falls on my anniversary, I'll have to negotiate something with the wife.

I tried to fit it in this year (I wanted to meet Speeder there)) but with the new job I can't peel away so soon after starting.

I have my sights set on next year

[onewhippedpuppy]

Tim, if I go I'll shoot you a PM. Maybe we can meet up. Myself, I've never been, the last few years I've been in summer classes, with finals falling at the end of July. Fortunately that's no longer a problem.

I've always been a big fan of the RVs and Lancairs, particularly the Lancairs. They're just sexy aircraft, with amazing performance. Plus, I'd love to build my own airplane.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Tim, if I go I'll shoot you a PM. Maybe we can meet up. Myself, I've never been, the last few years I've been in summer classes, with finals falling at the end of July. Fortunately that's no longer a problem.

Sounds good, I will arrive opening day, Monday 7/28/08 and will probably stay 3-4 days.

[cgarr]

So why did he crash? You don't need an engine to land?

[Mule]

Originally Posted by JayG

My neighbor has an rv7 and showed me videos of STi engines swapped in. Pretty cool but not necessarily faster. I dunno about a vette engine humming at 3k for hours on end.

Yeah, they run at 8k+ for 3 hours at Daytona, but 3k will probably have them disintegrating!