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We will have to look back on Iraq in 20 years and see if we "did more harm than good."

I very much suspect that will not have been the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4099287)

I repeat my question to sniper: What possible purpose is there in asking someone to vote who has zero idea what this means or who the candidates are or what they represent?

Such a condition would merely be a failure in the 'ruling class' parties in failing to put out their respective message.

And seriously, IMO pretty much all people are sheep, even in the 1st world. Western voters are every bit as ignorant as anyone elses.

I guess we should appoint Al Bore dictator for life.

Quote:

The US Postal Service published Obama's resume on a new first class stamp.

Now THAT'S funny. It'd fit, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4099298)

Such a condition would merely be a failure in the 'ruling class' parties in failing to put out their respective message.

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That must be it. No one got the message.

Millions in sub-saharan africa just haven't gotten the message. Because the "ruling class" merely failed to put it out.

Good grief.

labels make it easier for some at home to follow along. If they had to parse the prose and see a spectrum it would give them a headache. I'm just trying to mitigate pain and suffering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4099287)

...My point in this discussion was simply that there are many places on this earth today where the preconditions for a meaningful democracy do not exist. Hopefully those preconditions will exist one day — but they don't today.

When the snipers of this world try to export democracy to such countries at the point of a gun—well intentioned though they may be—they are bound to do more harm than good. Some countries, with their present boundaries, can only be maintained through a strongman. Weaken the central government and introduce democracy and slaughter and mayhem will result. Then your only choices are either to balkanize the place into tribal fiefdoms, or reintroduce another strongman. For such countries the best you could wish them is a benign dictator. Not democracy.

I have argued here before that Iraq is one such country. The former Yugoslavia was another. Ditto for many third world countries.

As these countries develop they often develop hybrid systems. Take the "guided democracies" in which you have elections but no real choice.(Singapore for example).

Or "democracies" such as Thailand where order is only maintained by a strong military and royal family.

I repeat my question to sniper: What possible purpose is there in asking someone to vote who has zero idea what this means or who the candidates are or what they represent?

"Exporting democracy ... at the point of a gun" was not the postwar goal of the US. The National Security Council paper approved and signed by all the Principals (and the President in late August 2002) states the following in the section called "U.S. Goal"

* Eliminate Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, their means of delivery and associated programs, to prevent Iraq from breaking out of containment and becoming a more dangerous threat to the region and beyond.

* End Iraqi threats to its neighbors

* Stop the Iraqi government’s tyrannizing of its own population

* Cut Iraqi links to and sponsorship of international terrorism

* Maintain Iraq’s unity and territorial integrity

* Liberate the Iraqi people from tyranny, and assist them in creating a society based on moderation, pluralism and democracy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4099321)

That must be it. No one got the message.

Millions in sub-saharan africa just haven't gotten the message. Because the "ruling class" merely failed to put it out.

Good grief.

Yes, it's that simple. It is up to the government to educate the masses. Is that not what we've been told ad nauseum our whole lives?

An ignorant populace is no more than an indicator of a failed government education system.

Sub Saharan Africans are human beings, and as such are every bit as capable of learning ANYTHING the white man can. They have the same inherent rights as whitey does too.

Those are some shockingly racist views you hold there sports fan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4099572)

Those are some shockingly racist views you hold there sports fan.

As I said before, you need to get out more.

BTW, you ever lived in the third world?

Or are you too elitist for that?

As i have stated i have been to parts of the third world. So yes.

Hell, in many respects, i LIVE in the third world, and i definitely work in it.

I thought that: "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness."
~Mark Twain

Apparently not in your case Dottore.

Anyone ever seen the movie trading places?

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4100019)

As i have stated i have been to parts of the third world. So yes.

Living on a military base and well-armed?

That isn't really "living in the 3rd world".

Philly otoh :p

I'm just sayin'...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4099652)

As I said before, you need to get out more.

BTW, you ever lived in the third world?

I have. However, I've never been to the moon and I still know it's not made of cream cheese.