Unions and America's Future

dd74 · 08-01-2008, 03:25 PM

I'm wondering about the ways America will get back on track as an innovator and world leader. I see this country as leading the quest for alternative fuels, pharmaceuticals and technology. I also believe American car companies will come back. Ford, for example, has some very nice items coming down the pike, if only they can ever get their act together.

I believe the only way for these companies will exist is to retool their focus on a single product. Also, they have to get smaller by scaling back on personel, along with health benefits. Needless to say, unions would not be part of this new corporate picture. Or will they?

In short, am I wrong here? Will there always be a place for unions in American business?

Racerbvd · Racerbvd's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by dd74

I'm wondering about the ways America will get back on track as an innovator and world leader. I see this country as leading the quest for alternative fuels, pharmaceuticals and technology. I also believe American car companies will come back. Ford, for example, has some very nice items coming down the pike, if only they can ever get their act together.

I believe the only way for these companies will exist is to retool their focus on a single product. Also, they have to get smaller by scaling back on personel, along with health benefits. Needless to say, unions would not be part of this new corporate picture. Or will they?

In short, am I wrong here? Will there always be a place for unions in American business?

Ask a retired United pilot what the unions did for them.
For the most part, unions have out lived their use, there was a time when they were really needed, and there are some area where unions are needed day, mostly because of the education they provide (plumbers, electricians, ect) but not walfart baggers

Superman · 08-01-2008, 04:14 PM

I am laughing out loud at the suggestion it was the union, as opposed to United Airlines, that is responsible for your friend's retirement catastrophe. Out loud.

And of course, we disagree on whether Wal-Mart workers should be allowed to bargain as a group, or whether they should be required to approach the employer individually.

But dd is asking a HIGHLY important question and I think he's got some of the answers. I would agree that if we are to remain at the top of the world economic heap, there are two battles we MUST win. One is innovation/technology and the other is education. If we cannot win these battles, we are screwed.

IROC · IROC's Garage

Ask the UPS union workers if their lives are better after their strike years ago. Ask the workers at Boeing's Oak Ridge facility if their strike was worth it (Boeing decided to close the facility when it was obvious that the striking workers could not fulfill obligations).

IMHO, I think unions are dinosaurs that need to succumb to the tar pit. The adversarial "bite the hand that feeds you" attitude just doesn't work any more. I've worked in many union and non-union environments. Unions are only favored by the people who are protected by them - they are tolerated at best - despised at worst, by every one else that has to deal with them.

Racerbvd · Racerbvd's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman

I am laughing out loud at the suggestion it was the union, as opposed to United Airlines, that is responsible for your friend's retirement catastrophe. Out loud.

And of course, we disagree on whether Wal-Mart workers should be allowed to bargain as a group, or whether they should be required to approach the employer individually.

But dd is asking a HIGHLY important question and I think he's got some of the answers. I would agree that if we are to remain at the top of the world economic heap, there are two battles we MUST win. One is innovation/technology and the other is education. If we cannot win these battles, we are screwed.

Sorry Supe, but they through the retired pilots under the bus to pay the new blood. The unions sold out the retired pilots and took away the medical coverage.

rusnak · 08-01-2008, 04:45 PM

I think labor laws might in the future be relaxed to allow the states to make their own laws on a lot of things in order to attract really large employers. I can see this happening as international competition for employers gets more heated, and more third world countries become safer, cleaner, and more modern.

When the day comes that a redneck from Nort Carolina decides that eating Lamajoons is ok for breakfast, or starts eating with chopsicks, that is when the final nail has been hammered into the union coffin.

That day is a ways off, but it's coming.

David · David's Garage

I'm in an non-represented position but the shop I work in is a union shop. Unions have had a huge positive effect for all of us over the years, but I do wonder about their current usefulness.

We need more machinists for our shop so we call the union hall. Their response, "we don't have anymore"

So we ask if they have a plan to train more? Their response, "no, but if we want to train them, they'll represent them?!?!?!"

As strange as the system is, our best machinists who could almost name their price anywhere else, fight tooth and nail for even the worst union machinist in the shop who's getting the same wage as the best.

BTW, if there are any class A machinists out there who would like to earn $31/hour plus overtime and benefits in an air conditioned shop in Houston, please let me know

Tidybuoy · 08-01-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dd74

Also, they have to get smaller by scaling back on personel, along with health benefits. Needless to say, unions would not be part of this new corporate picture. Or will they?

I worked as a financial analyst for a medium sized retailer with approximately $90 million in store payroll. Each time the minimum wage increased, payroll (comparitive payroll that is) remained about $90 million. Simply stated, when a company is forced to pay higher wages, they cut back the number of employees they have to pay. This is not a union issue but it's got a similar effect.

I think a better idea would be to curb the maximum wage.

sammyg2 · 08-02-2008, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 125shifter

BTW, if there are any class A machinists out there who would like to earn $31/hour plus overtime and benefits in an air conditioned shop in Houston, please let me know

There is a Sulzer pump company shop in Houston and they have very, very good machinists that are making considerably less that that and may be looking. I'm just sayin .....

lendaddy · 08-02-2008, 07:18 AM

Unions really aren't a problem anymore, they've done their damage/spent their wad/sold the future generations down the river.

sammyg2 · 08-02-2008, 07:24 AM

With respect to unions, our country seems to be headed to a more socialist or communistic stance, and if that's true then the unions with thrive. Unions are a direct example of communism. Each to his own ability etc.
Unions don't reward hard work or excellence, they discourage or squash it. They reward and protect lazy, poor performing workers and make it almost impossible to fire them or discipline them, so their numbers grow.
Pretty soon the really good workers quit trying so hard or are promoted to management. What remains is a non-productive, over-paid workforce that does next to nothing, except cash big paychecks they didn't earn and threaten to go on strike if they don't get even more of something they didn't earn.
The company struggles to compete because the productivity is so low and the overhead is so high.
Eventually everyone loses thanks to the overpaid union workers who don't have to work for their money. The company closes down, or is forced to lay off lots of workers. Unemployment goes up, the local economy is hurt, Then they ***** and complain that the government isn't doing enough to help them.
Ref. Detroit, Dearborn, Lansing, Pittsburgh, etc.

David · David's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2

There is a Sulzer pump company shop in Houston and they have very, very good machinists that are making considerably less that that and may be looking. I'm just sayin .....

We got one from them last year and we've been very happy with him

The problem is the good machinists aren't looking for a job since they already have one. We've put ads in the newspaper sports page trying to get those folks that don't look in the want ads. We're really surprised by how much a little newspaper ad costs. It's not much cheaper than radio ads which we may try next.

sammyg2 · 08-02-2008, 10:13 AM

Here's a good example of the liberal communist mentality:

The LA city council passed an ordinance that says car wash workers who are employed at a car wah that does business with the city have to get $10 an hour plus benefits, or $11.26 an hour with no benefits. Same goes for the illegals who clean the rooms and change the sheets in hotels.

Car wash workers. The guys who typically don't speak English and get a job at a car wash as soon as they get into this country (illegally) and only work there until they find something better. The guys who make more off tips than a paycheck, are going to get $11.25 plus tips.

Car washes are going to close down or leave the city. Car wash workers will lose jobs, people will not want to pay the higher costs for a car wash. They wil ljust get it done closer to work or somewhere else or they will do it themselves.
The sad part is, the city council is passing rules that intentionally cost the people who live in that city more money. They are intentionally raising tax-payer costs. I hate stupid liberals.

If they want to do something like this they should first get immigration to raid the car washes. At least I could support that.

EDIT, BTW I wash and wax my own car and I don't live in LA, I just hate seeing this type of unintelligent thinking.

tabs · 08-02-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Unions don't reward hard work or excellence, they discourage or squash it. They reward and protect lazy, poor performing workers and make it almost impossible to fire them or discipline them, so their numbers grow. .............................What remains is a non-productive, over-paid workforce that does next to nothing, except cash big paychecks they didn't earn and threaten to go on strike if they don't get even more of something they didn't earn.

WOW where do I sign up, that sounds like a job made for me. One question do I even have to show up, or will they just send the check to me in the mail?

sammyg2 · 08-02-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 125shifter

We got one from them last year and we've been very happy with him

The problem is the good machinists aren't looking for a job since they already have one. We've put ads in the newspaper sports page trying to get those folks that don't look in the want ads. We're really surprised by how much a little newspaper ad costs. It's not much cheaper than radio ads which we may try next.

My last job was running the Sulzer service center in the LA area. My top machinists were making around $22 an hour. These guys were incredibly skilled, they could make anything faster than you would think possible and would do it flawlessly. i was proud to be associated with people so good at their job. They loved working overtime and the OT in the shop was running around 40% which is crazy but that's how they made enough to live.
I fought to get them more money but the corporate management at the time didn't understand. I was making good money but the people who worked for me weren't and I didn't like that.
I considered one of them a very good friend and I helped him find a much better paying job with a competitor even though he was one of the best machinists I had.
I quit that job soon after he did.

As a comparison, the machinists where I work for now are making somewhere around $33 an hour with great benefits and based on how hard they work and the quality of the work aren't in the same league with my Sulzer machinists.
I've tried to hire them away from Sulzer but they are from South-east Asia (all legally here) and don't speak or read English well enough to pass the pre-hiring screening tests we have. What a joke. These guys are awesome. I've seen one of them make a big complex 12 stage pump shaft that cost the customer $16k in less than 20 hours, working straight through. Ordinarily that would take about 60 hours of labor. We're talking conventional engine lathe and mill, no CNC stuff. Working off a print.
It was ready for the customer the next morning after it was ordered on an emergency basis, even though normal delivery was 1 month. Needless to say that generated more orders from that customer.

One of em did the planing and boring of multi-stage pump cases and I had competitors from the bay area sending me jobs to do for them because they couldn't do it as cheap or as fast as my shop could. my shop was sub-contracted to my direct competitors and we both still made good money on the job.

sammyg2 · 08-02-2008, 10:49 AM

I've found best was to find qualified machinists is by word of mouth in the industry. Adds never got me the results I was looking for.
Offering your employees a $1000 finder's fee to go out and recruit good, qualified machinists and offering them $5k signing bonuses after 1 year of service is about what it takes now but they are worth their weight in gold.

Welders are a different story. It was easy to find a certified welder but I went through 4 of em in 2 years because I couldn't find one that had the skills and work ethic they said they had in the interview. One of them stole everything he could load in his pick-up before I had a chance to kick his butt off the property. He had no business in the same building as my machinists.

We billed over $7 million a year just in shop labor with 16 people on the floor. Our quotes were based on a $125 and hour shop rate and we were very competitive in price. We turned down work because we had such a big backlog.

sammyg2 · 08-02-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tabs

WOW where do I sign up, that sounds like a job made for me. One question do I even have to show up, or will they just send the check to me in the mail?

Yes, you do have to show up regularly, and in many cases you have to pee clean, but that's about it. the hardest part is just getting your foot in the door.
If that was what you were seriously looking for and that's what would make you happy, then I wouldn't have much respect for you. I know you were kidding of course.

sammyg2 · 08-02-2008, 12:36 PM

My personal experience with a union:
I just turned 20 and was going to college. A guy offered me a job making over $15 with full bennies. that was huge back then.
i was rebuilding motorcycle engines for money when I was 12, motorcycle transmissions when i was 14, and volkswagon engines when i was 16 so he figured i was qualified.

I jumped on it and went to work for a contractor that employed union millwrights.
I had to go down and buy my union card, no apprenticeship because the company vouched for me.

i worked for them for 7 years. I was a foreman with my own service truck after 2 1/2 years.

Everyone technically worked out of the hall but almost everyone who worked for this contractor worked for them exclusively. I never had my name on the waiting list the entire time I worked as a millwright, even though hte average number was around 800 on the book.
We would call the hall and request guys on the book and if they were any good we'd keep em busy year round. If they weren't any good wey'd lay em off and send em back to the hall.
The good millwrights worked steady for a contractor all the time. The lousy ones rode the books waiting for a call. they were lucky to get enough hours in to maintain their bennies.

The union was something that took a portion of my paycheck and negotiated away my pay and benefits because there were too many burned-out buddies on the books.
We went from 100% of scale to 95, then 90. All in an attempt to increase work enough to keep the lousy millwrights off the books.
They negotiated away our double-time on Sunday. They did everything they could to reduce the number of millwrights waiting for work. What they didn't do was admit that all the good millwrights were working 60 hours a week.
The bad ones were the ones waiting for work, and they were doing that because no contractor wanted them. They could have negotiated that we work for free and those guys would still not be in demand.

I got fed up and went to work for a customer (a refinery).
To this day I still employ contract millwright companies.
The regulars are great, but when we need a bunch more for a shutdown or a big job I have to go through and weed out the guys from the hall that don't know or don't care.

The union treated everyone the same and demanded the same pay for everyone. If the bad ones weren't in demand, the union punished those of us who were working all the time.
Even in a union environment we had conceived a system to weed out the weak and promote the strong, but the union tried to prevent that. They tried to undermine that. They said that we should take care of our union brothers, even if they were too dumb, to stoned, or too lazy to carry their weight.
The good workers were punished because the poor workers couldn't keep up.
Bad concept, a communist concept.

Our country is based on a couple of things, one big one is that everyone has the same opportunity to succeed if we earn it. Not to have it handed to us if we don't earn it.
That's what made this country strong and what killed the soviet union.
Now we have people who want to follow that same path to failure. I say go do it somewhere else. This is a good country, lets not ruin it.

Rearden · 08-02-2008, 03:00 PM

Are unions still partners with organized crime?

buttjoint · 08-02-2008, 03:14 PM

I work for a non union drywall company and we got so big we now have the union biz agents following us around all day long to find out where our job are so they can picket the job and so forth. What a real pain in the butt haneing outside my home every morning waiting to follow me all day. Two cars with two *********s in each car. These *********s are about as criminal as you can get and its all legal. Got to love the unions.