What is "Middle Class?"

[Superman]

With all due respect to the threads here started by posters who think McCain had scored a recent coup against Obama, from my perspective Obama has won pretty much every exchange. I just noticed a new one. Obama criticized McCain for a recent remark that seems to define "rich" as those whose annual earnings are at least $5M.

McCain is an idiot for allowing the perception that "middle class" might include folks making just under $5M per year. His political "party" is already tatoo'd with the reputation of being the party that favors rich people and is out of touch with the middle class, lower middle class and working poor. He clings to the policies of the current "president" who (predictably) has offered up tax cut after tax cut for already-wealthy people.

McCain has been making Obama's job so easy anybody could do it. Recent policies and decisions have left the dwindling "middle class" and the classes below them hurty badly and likely to hurt more in the near future (inflation, folks, is going to get ugly). McCain and the Republicans are sitting ducks. Because of their policies.

[s_wilwerding]

Originally Posted by Superman

With all due respect to the threads here started by posters who think McCain had scored a recent coup against Obama, from my perspective Obama has won pretty much every exchange. I just noticed a new one. Obama criticized McCain for a recent remark that seems to define "rich" as those whose annual earnings are at least $5M.

McCain is an idiot for allowing the perception that "middle class" might include folks making just under $5M per year. His political "party" is already tatoo'd with the reputation of being the party that favors rich people and is out of touch with the middle class, lower middle class and working poor. He clings to the policies of the current "president" who (predictably) has offered up tax cut after tax cut for already-wealthy people.

If you actually watched the debate, it was quite obvious that McCain just threw the $5M comment out there offhandedly - in fact, he immediately said that the press would probably distort it. He was just making a joke that if you make $5M a year, that's rich. He wasn't trying to say that if you make $4.99M a year that you're middle class.

I liked McCain's answer - he said it doesn't matter how you define rich, because we shouldn't be raising taxes on anybody. I also liked his example of how "taxing the rich" tends to snag a lot of very hard working folks who own small businesses.

My uncle got an electrical engineering degree, then straight out of college went to work on an oil rig in Saudi Arabia. He got paid well, put all the money away, and when he came back, used all of that money (~$1M) to start a company with a few other folks. Through no fault of his own (the other fellas were cooking the books), he lost everything. He proceeded to save his money again, started a new company (on his own this time) and has spent nearly his entire life and mostly 80 hour work weeks on building up a business. He now makes around $300K a year. Obama's solution to all my uncle's hard work - he ought to be taxed more to support the lazy folks that can't get off their rears to find work. Guess what? I don't agree with that. I figure that for everything my uncle has gone through and the hard work literally his whole life to get to where he is, he deserves whatever he makes, and the government has no right to punish him for his success.

I agree with most of the other folks on the Board - McCain hit a home run the other night, and Obama, without his teleprompter, didn't do so well. By the way, a lot of people wonder how McCain seemed so prepared - he must have known the questions, right? I think it's a very easy answer - every time you see McCain at a campaign stop, he allows the audience to ask questions. Ergo, he's probably heard and formulated answers to most of the questions that were asked the other night. Obama, on the other hand, speaks with a teleprompter, rarely takes questions, and (quite obvious from his performance the other night), hates town hall-type meetings.

[Mo_Gearhead]

Ahhh yes. Labels. Categories. Groups. Where does one fit in?

Politicians love that game don't they? As do the 'talking heads' that bait them into answering such drivel.

What McCain (anyone) should have replied was, "Americans should not aspire to be 'middle class'."
_____________________


Quote: "McCain and the Republicans are sitting ducks. Because of their policies."

LOL... So how will one (and the Dems) explain away the upcoming loss in November this time? Swift boating? Diebold voting errors? Hanging chads?

[Zeke]

I don't think middle class has that much to do with earnings. I certainly believe that "upper class" hardly exists regardless of earnings.

[Superman]

I can't quarrel with most of what you say Steve. But in spite of the more reasonable context in which McCain's remarks were made, he certainly tee'd the ball up for Obama.

I never liked Dubya but those of you who did....probably found his verbal mistakes charming. Well, even you guys probably don't find those mistakes charming any more. For a bowling buddy, they're charming. For the President of the United States of America, they are not.

Which brings me to something many of you have noticed about Obama. If a candidate really wanted to be candid with voters, he would still need to strike a balance between giving them that.....and giving them the actual truth. Some people are very simple thinkers. Black and white. I think conservatives tend to be more this way. I do not say this out of criticism. I think liberals are more "circumspect" thinkers. Lots of shades of grey. One of the things I have come to know with relative certainty is that the most correct answer to most questions is: It depends.

We've had enough of politicians that pander to corporate interests. We've had enough of politicians who shoot from the hip and defy conventional wisdom. We've had enough of politicians with "guns blazin'," arrogant, Texas-attitude. Sure, McCain is trying hard to be decisive. And it's going to hurt him many more times before this is over.

[Rearden]

Originally Posted by Superman

I can't quarrel with most of what you say Steve. But in spite of the more reasonable context in which McCain's remarks were made, he certainly tee'd the ball up for Obama.

Only because Obama lacks integrity. Obama turned McCain's comment about how it doesn't matter how long troops are in Iraq if they aren't being shot at (like Korea and Germany) into "McCain wants to continue the Iraq war for another 100 years."

So it's clear that Obama will play dumb and try to exploit the $5 million line, even though he knows it's a lie.

[Nathans_Dad]

Here's the corollary to your question Supe, and one that makes more of a difference to your candidates taxation plan. What defines rich?

Seems to me Mr. Obama feels a family of four making $250k a year are "rich" and should have their taxes raised. My wife and I both work, and we are almost to that $250k per year mark. We have 3 kids and one on the way. We are putting money away for retirement and starting to try to save for college.

Funny, I don't feel rich...

Mr. Obama apparently thinks I should give him some $6000 extra per year for social security and another $12000 per year just for general purposes. Well, to tell you the truth if that happens our ability to adequately fund the 529 plans for our children will be drastically reduced. So, shall I exchange my kid's college fund so Mr. Obama and his democrat buddies can squander my money pandering to their voters? I think not.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by s_wilwerding

My uncle got an electrical engineering degree, then straight out of college went to work on an oil rig in Saudi Arabia. He got paid well, put all the money away, and when he came back, used all of that money (~$1M) to start a company with a few other folks. Through no fault of his own (the other fellas were cooking the books), he lost everything. He proceeded to save his money again, started a new company (on his own this time) and has spent nearly his entire life and mostly 80 hour work weeks on building up a business. He now makes around $300K a year. Obama's solution to all my uncle's hard work - he ought to be taxed more to support the lazy folks that can't get off their rears to find work.

Thank you!

That's pretty typical of the average American success story. Obama thinks your uncle should be punished for his success.

[Hugh R]

Wasn't it senator Dick Gephardt who referred to some of us as "lucky sperm"? Makes me sick.

USMC at 17, went to undergraduate part time at night while working full time, ditto for my MBA. Put myself though with no financial aid (sorry baby, wrong color). Saved, trying to buy my first house 750 sq. ft. Moved up over 30 years of work, and I'm the lucky one? Give me a break.

[BeyGon]

I still don't know what "middle class" is. Is it in Orange County or some parts of Riverside County, what is middle class in Arkanssass, is it the same as middle class in upper New York? Is rich the same in Hollywood as it is in Bangladash?
Rich to me is 5 million dollars, but that doesn't mean you have to have 5 million to be rich. I don't think McCain made any mistakes there.
Obama's gaffs will be the above my pay grade
and
there is evil in Darfur and in the American cities. You have to confront evil with humility.

[boba]

Originally Posted by Superman

One of the things I have come to know with relative certainty is that the most correct answer to most questions is: It depends.

When the question is "What do you believe…..?" "It depends" is a totally inadequate answer.

For someone who seems to have issues with shooting from the hip I find your distortions and mischaracterizations amusing.

You may feel better if you can put labels on people but that just doesn’t work, as you said it is often more complicated than that.

[pwd72s]

Actually, I prefer the curad brand over band aid...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I grew up blue collar, working middle class, lower middle class, whatever you want to call it. we did not take vacations. we had used bikes. A Chevy station wagon and a Chevy pick-up lasted for a decade each, and then they were replaced with used. We did not really go to the doctor much, nor the dentist. Investment in anything wasn't ever a consideration. When we moved once, we couldn't afford the same size modest home we'd always had, so the family room was my bedroom for a year. I'm the only one in my family to go to college, which I paid for. We were extremely provincial, unsophisticated and naive about the bigger world around us. We were uncomfortable around comfort.

As my father was a boat mechanic, our extravagance was having a decent 22 foot boat, but only after a summer's restoration. We went fishing and camping every weekend while living in MN. We cut a lot of wood in the fall and burned it all winter. We lived within our means for the most part.

I'm sure that there are many families living in the U.S. today that make what my mom and dad, adjusted for inflation. But I don't think that many live the way we did, instead credit cards adding to their "net income" allowing folks to move one notch up on the ladder.

I think many people who feel like they are middle class really aren't. They are either making a good living and saving for the future or making a good living and living beyond their means. Either way, these people may not have a lot of money in their personal bank accounts at the end of each month, but they make too much to be considered middle class.

[fintstone]

McCain was right. $5 million is rich.

[shbop]

"Middle Class" has simply become a label for the regular folks. The ones with a mortgage, kids in school, trying to do the best they can to provide for themselves and their families. The ones that always try to pay their bills on-time and constantly try to figure-out how to do things better. Below "middle class" exists those who believe the rest of us should support their lack of effort. Housing, Health-care, & cable. The ones that don't pay their bills, and that are always looking for someone to tell them it's OK, and it's not their fault. This is Obama-Land.
There is no dollar amount that defines the term. It has to do with character, not money.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by shbop

"Middle Class" has simply become a label for the regular folks. The ones with a mortgage, kids in school, trying to do the best they can to provide for themselves and their families. The ones that always try to pay their bills on-time and constantly try to figure-out how to do things better. Below "middle class" exists those who believe the rest of us should support their lack of effort. Housing, Health-care, & cable. The ones that don't pay their bills, and that are always looking for someone to tell them it's OK, and it's not their fault. This is Obama-Land.
There is no dollar amount that defines the term. It has to do with character, not money.

Well said.

Hey Supe, in the midst of your opening Bush bashing drivel, you threw out the party line about "tax cuts for the wealthy". Seriously, are you that stupid? At the time of the Bush tax cuts, I was working full time and attending college. I was supporting my wife and 1 child (at the time) on MAYBE $25k/year. Those tax cuts helped us get a hefty refund. As I find myself stating to you quite often here recently, don't just throw out the party line and expect people to buy in. Generally speaking, this audience is too smart for that. There's nothing that makes my accountant wife more angry than hearing about the "Bush tax cuts for the rich", because it's total BS.

As for the topic at hand, I would also state that people in America now feel entitled to the middle class, either via debt or public assistance. The day of working your ass off to make a better life for your family is gone. Those of us that do are now expected to support those that don't. The Constitution promises equity, right? Or was that the Communist Manifesto........

[Rot 911]

Shaun84, that was a good post.

[The Gaijin]

Across the USA their are wide discrepancies in income for families that may be considered "middle class". In a high wage, high tax and expensive place like NYC - a couple earning a combined $200K might have a standard of living that would cost $100,000 in a low tax and lower cost place..

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Mo_Gearhead

Ahhh yes. Labels. Categories. Groups. Where does one fit in?

Politicians love that game don't they? As do the 'talking heads' that bait them into answering such drivel.

Exactly. Politicians in generaland liberals in particular love nothing more than classifying Americans by this or that group, individuals be damed. We're all supposed to be ingroups so pols can more easily pander.

[widgeon13]

To me, middle class has more to do w/ how much you save, not how much you make. I know people who make $250,000 a year and spend every penny as soon as it comes in the door. They have all the toys. They have no savings. They would also have to rely on uncle sam if the shlt hit the fan or they lost their source of income. I know others who make $100,000 a year and save religiously. They are building wealth and see themselves as becoming wealthy at some point in the future.

One group is waiting for the government to take care of them and the other is going to take care of themselves.

$1M a year is not wealthy if you piss it all away, get my point. I also know school teachers who have retired millionaires. They still consider themselves middle class.

Politicians just use the term "middle class" to make you feel like they are needed in order to give you the hand outs.