Gibson vs Fender...

[Nathans_Dad]

At the risk of starting a riot, I was wondering if we could have a calm and reasoned discussion about the specific differences between Fender and Gibson guitars.

To start, obviously the Fenders tend to favor more single coil pickups and a bit "twangier" sound than the fatter, humbucker tones of the Gibson. Of course, both brands make guitars with single coils and humbuckers.

My question is this, what is it that makes a Gibson Les Paul worth $3000 when a good Fender Strat can be had for $1500? Why is the Gibson considered more of an "instrument" than the Fender?

As a corollary, Epiphone is Gibson's budget brand. You can get an Epiphone Les Paul for 1/10th of a Gibson Les Paul. While I understand that there are savings involved in wood, electronics and manufacturing costs, 10x?? The difference between a Mexican Strat and an American Strat is about double the price, maybe a little more. Why is there such a chasm between the Epiphone and the Gibson? In short, why are Gibsons so friggin expensive?

Discuss...

[Rick V]

Is this a good time to tell you I am playing the 69 Les Paul, goldtop that I bought way back in High school?
I also have an Epi, ES 350 semi hollow and it is a very strong, mellow sounding unit. It is one of my favorite axes. Are the prices reflective of the quality, not really. I have played other Epi's that I couldn't stand nor could I get a grove with them, I bought mine because it just felt and sounded great. Well worth the money (to me), more so that the Les Paul. JMO.
I wish I had back the guitars I have sold through out my life.

[stuartj]

What is this "VS".

Have both, use both, love both.

No Fender BTW is woth more than $500. And while (EDIT- new Epiphones) Ephiphones are generally rubbish, Gibsons are priced ridculsously. It is just about Brand and baby boomers with too much disposable income. And lets not get started on "Custom Shop" and "Masterbuilt"

Tip for you Rick- "Orville by Gibson". Research.....

[nostatic]

"What the market will bear..."

I don't know that the LP is "more of an instrument" than a Strat - never heard or thought that. Maybe it is because the LP is a set neck and Strat is bolt-on.

To me the differences are the tone and the scale length. I never was a Gibson guy (shorter scale length) so I've never owned one...only Fender and other related 25.5" scale guitars (like Ernie Ball).

They are both hunks of wood that are routed for electronics then assembled. Quality is variable as are the materials. I've found that price doesn't really indicate the "real" playability and tone of the instrument. I've played custom shop guitars that I thought sucked hard, and Mexi strats that were rather "magic." Just depends on the luck of the draw. Back when I used to turn my gear every 6-9 months, I would end up playing 20 or 30 seemingly identical Strats to find "the one." The only generalization I could make is that the more you paid the more consistent the workmanship was and the higher the "good" to "bad" ratio.

That said I haven't bought an instrument in over 8 years as I haven't found anything better than the Zon basses I've got, even though I play some very nice acoustics from time to time I can't complain about my Martin OM-21, and I don't play my electric parts strat enough to warrant buying a "good" one.

GAS is a disease...just say no

[JMPRO]

I have both, 2 Strats and 1 les paul and play all of them. Each one has its own voice and I play each one a little different. But the question of why they are so different in price. When Gibson put out thier first Les paul in 52 I think it was more expensive than Fenders offerings at the time. It was said to have been because Gibson used guitar builders and conventional guitar building practices, set necks , carved tops and multi layer bodies. Fender used furniture building principals and modular guitars for ease of construction and assembly. I am sure the way Gibson builds them now is the same and contributes a big part of the higher price. Back in 52 a Les Paul was considered a real guitar with the carved top and set neck compared to the boat oar Fenders were called by many people when the first Broadcasters hit the market.

[porsche4life]

IMHO price reflects very little in this market. My mother plays and i play a little and she has 2 acoustics 1 epi and 1 ibanez. The epi was 99 and the ibanez was 300. I hate that ibanez with a passion. The feel and sound is just all wrong while the cheap epi sounds and feels like a dream so i say when shopping just go play them all like todd said and buy the one you like best.

[Rick Lee]

I have one of the nicest Les Pauls you'll see and I bought it for $1000 a few yrs. ago. I also have a Mexican Strat I paid $300 for new 10 yrs. ago and have since put EMG's in it. Both are super guitars and a lot for the money. Every time I go to the Guitar Center, I try to play some of the most expensive guitars they have there. I can't see $5-10k worth of difference between theirs and mine. Guitars are like guns - you can always have more than you need and never as many as you want. Depends on what you'll use it for, your own body style, whether you play sitting or standing, how loud you play and even the quality of electricity where you play most. Strats will buzz at high volume in a place with flourescent lights. Les Pauls sound best when cranked up real loud, but they're real heavy to hold too.

[ramonesfreak]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

My question is this, what is it that makes a Gibson Les Paul worth $3000 when a good Fender Strat can be had for $1500? Why is the Gibson considered more of an "instrument" than the Fender?

Discuss...

the answer to your question is more complex than your question appears...or maybe not

As far as Les Paul's go... the newer ones anyway...I cant find a good answer for you, except that the wood quality is of a higher grade than a strat or tele, there is more of it, and, the neck is glued.

If your talking about hollow-body or semi-hollow body gibsons, the answer is partly in the manufacturing and partly in the brand image..if you want a 335 or a 175, you gotta be willing to pay for it. Even though they are not hand-carved arch tops, there is quite a bit more effort required to build one than a strat...that basically gets spit out of a CNC machine and bolted together once the paint dries

I play both. own both. require both.

ive got an american strat and a Gibson SG Standard. I love them both. They could not be more different. The Gibson was more than twice the cost of the strat. Why? Im not sure !!! Nobody really knows ! the quality of both is the same

i would never part with either

you will find this issue debated on the various guitar forums over and over and over

Dollar for dollar, the best value in a "versatile" guitar is probably an american strat or tele in my opinion

Best quality and value in guitar making ive come across, comes from the only remaining 100% american guitar maker, Rickenbacker. They however, are not as versatile as a fender.... which is why guitar freaks like myself, go bankrupt buying a zillion guitars... gotta have one of each

The question of "cost" between acoustic guitar makers is much simpler and easier to answer

[Nathans_Dad]

Well of course part of the reason for the thread is I am looking for my next guitar to add to the collection.

Currently I have:

2007 Fender Highway 1 American Strat with a humbucker at the bridge (not crazy about that humbucker, btw) --Purchased new at Guitar Center for $600
2001 Fender American Standard Telecaster --Purchased "used" but actually never played (tags still on the neck) off ebay for $650--SCORE
Epiphone Masterbilt Acoustic --Purchased used but minty fresh off craigslist locally for $350...really like this guitar. It's all solid wood, top, back and sides and sounds as good as my uncle's $1000 Martin but for much less.

So, I figure a Les Paul is probably the next choice. I have tried archtops and semi-hollows at Guitar Center but for some reason they just don't work for me, as much as I want to like them. I played a few LPs and liked the sounds coming out of the amp much better.

My budget is probably $1k tops so that rules out Gibsons unless I do a studio model and even then it would probably have to be used. I can get a nice Epiphone LP for anywhere from $500-$800. I was looking at the Epiphone Les Paul Ultra II which looks like a pretty nice guitar for the money.

[ramonesfreak]

if your budget is $1k, you will have great difficulty getting a Gibson

The problem with the epiphone Les Paul, is investment value. There is none. My brother has a beautiful Epi Les Paul with a nice flame. The electronics, like all Epis, are garbage...but the wood and playability and sound, are very nice. 20 years from now, it will likely be worth $400

Does that mean anything to you?

It means alot to me. Ive got a 1990 Paul Reed Smith that i bought for $700 that is now worth $3,000

My other american guitars, will never lose a single penny in depreciation.

Why do you like Les Pauls? They are heavy as hell, have a short scale, and are very expensive.... If you love them, and must have one, you must be prepared to spend more than $1000 for a decent one that is not beat, or else find a crack addict that needs some cash. That said, you could probably find a used one for somewhere between $1K and $2K no problem

[Hobby Logger]

If I had a 1K budget I would look for a used Fender American Vintage Reissue or American Artist series, they close to custom shop quality. I doubt you will be very happy with a 1K Les Paul.

[ramonesfreak]

guitars are a lot like sports cars

why would someone buy a ferrari 308 that has the same performance values as a 911SC, yet costs 4 times as much to purchase?

because you just gotta have it. it smells different, feels different, looks different, acts different, completes the collection, performs a certain role just a tad bit differently...

personally, i would rather have one very good, possibly very expensive guitar, than 10 inexpensive korean made guitars... because i love the feel of a quality instrument, preferably a hand made one

[Nathans_Dad]

First, no the investment value of the guitar doesn't really matter to me. I buy guitars to play them and enjoy them. I have 3 kids with another one on the way and I don't want to have to worry about where my guitars are with the kids around. Honestly, if I had a $4000 guitar I think I would be afraid to take it out of the case.

As far as why a Les Paul, yes they are heavy. The Epiphone Ultra and Ultra II are chambered though and weigh significantly less. Basically looking at the "iconic" guitars, I think most people start with a Strat, Tele and Les Paul. Rickenbacker makes some very nice guitars too, but again those are not within my budget.

I started out thinking I wanted a 335 copy. You tube has some very nice stuff with people playing 335s or Epiphone Dots/Casinos/Sheratons. I went into GC and played a bunch of semi-hollow bodies and just wasn't blown away. Yes they have great tone and I may well still get a semi-hollow next but something about the size of the guitar didn't feel quite right (and I'm a 6'5" guy...).

Like I said, I was only at GC for about 45 minutes and was just fooling around. I'm sure there will be multiple trips back before I decide on a new guitar.

One thing I did notice, though is that except for the finish looking a little different, I couldn't tell a difference (to my ear anyhow) between a Gibson LP and a higher end (i.e. $600) Epiphone LP.

[ramonesfreak]

well, my advice to you is this:

instead of buying anything by epiphone, check out Eastwood Guitars.
http://www.eastwoodguitars.com/

while not "made in the USA"...which is usually a deal breaker for me, i bought one. OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and cheap
and, will hold its value

I changed out the pickup selector and tuners and am very happy with the guitar i bought, which is the Airline 3 pickup deluxe. my god what a sound!

unfortunately, you cant just go down to guitar center and try them...but you can trust the Harmony Central reviews about them.

I dont buy guitars for "investment". I beat them to hell. I have a Santa Cruz acoustic that i paid $4,000 that has holes in it.

The investment aspect is important because when you get sick of it, you will get a good buck for it and can buy something else!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rick Lee]

I also got my 335 for $1000 around the same time I got the LP. I swear, there is no nicer 335 than mine. I STOLE it on eBay. Photos don't do it justice. It's a deep red with a gorgeous quilt. If I could only keep one, I'd keep the 335 and hawk the LP. 335's just have a magic about them. Would you believe Eddie Van Halen used to play them as his main axe, but then went to Strat-style bodies because the other guys in the band nagged him about it? IIRC, the original incarnation of his Frankenstrat had a 335 pickup in a Charvel Strat body. 335's are magic. No other way to describe them. They are so easy to play, that if it was your only guitar, you'd suck as soon as you picked up someone else's non-335. They are that smooth and they'll spoil you.

[ramonesfreak]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I also got my 335 for $1000 around the same time I got the LP. I swear, there is no nicer 335 than mine. I STOLE it on eBay. Photos don't do it justice. It's a deep red with a gorgeous quilt. If I could only keep one, I'd keep the 335 and hawk the LP. 335's just have a magic about them. Would you believe Eddie Van Halen used to play them as his main axe, but then went to Strat-style bodies because the other guys in the band nagged him about it? IIRC, the original incarnation of his Frankenstrat had a 335 pickup in a Charvel Strat body. 335's are magic. No other way to describe them. They are so easy to play, that if it was your only guitar, you'd suck as soon as you picked up someone else's non-335. They are that smooth and they'll spoil you.

that you got a nice 335 for $1K is nothing short of a miracle. ive been watching them for 10 years on ebay. that is VERY unusual

[Rick Lee]

I'll try to post a photo, but even a pro couldn't capture how this baby looks in the flesh.

[ramonesfreak]

i agree that the 335 will spoil you. a good one, which most are, is like butter. its one of the few guitars that has alluded me over the years, damnit!

[ramonesfreak]

anyone play/try a Nash strat or tele?
http://www.nashguitars.com/

im lucky that a local seller carries them. NICE. im not usually into "antiqued" or aged guitars but these are sweeeeet

they go for about $1,500

[stuartj]

Im the opposite. I find American guiatrs to be inconsistent in quality and generally over priced.

An Epi LP btw, if flame topped, will be either a veneer or a blah foto flame.


Rick
I picked up this up just a few weeks ago. Ive owned a number of OBGs and Ive been looking for a 59RI for some time. I would back this plank in against most things from Gibson and certainly anything new. Its a bit old and scarred- but I like them like that personally.

Orville by Gibson 1959 Reissue. 1992.
One piece mahogony back
Solid maple top
long neck tenon
fret edge binding
Gibson PAFs