Any of you pilots land at Hong Kong Kai Tak?

[HardDrive]

Quite the ride. I remember a Life magazine photo from the 70s looking up through the buildings in Hong Kong. It looked like the landing gear from the plane was on the roof.

[air-cool-me]

I would have been fun to have the chance to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_z5HtME9n8




Tegucigalpa also looks to be challenging..

[fingpilot]

Many, many times. Just got in from a long day, but will write more tomorrow. Back when I was Singpilot, and based in Singapore, was almost my first stop every day.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by air-cool-me

I would have been fun to have the chance to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_z5HtME9n8




Tegucigalpa also looks to be challenging..

I landed in Teguce as a passenger many years ago when I was in the military. Worst turbulence I ever experienced in a large aircraft as we approached the airport.

[air-cool-me]

i was going to jump seat down there for the day to see that approach..

local FSDO shut that down pretty quickly..

[Don Plumley]

I've done it as a pax in a 747. Great Ride - looking into apartment balconies, seeing the laundry hanging. Lot's of great video up:



From the cockpit:

[Drdogface]

Also was a passenger many times when in the Military and had to travel there from Nam and Thailand. Wild ride for sure and always made me nervous.

[fingpilot]

The approaches landing west were all conventional. Traditional ILS's and boring. Only funky note was to "Use caution for chinese junk masts to 135' on short final." The Runway was built on fill, and ended right at the rip-rap in the harbor.

The approaches landing east were where all the fun was. My airline required 3 times in 30 days to be able to use the approach in real weather to minimums. It was called an "IGS"; Instrument Guidance System". The approach plate (Which I wish I could duplicate here) was a real head-turner, pardon the pun. The video above (taken from the jump seat) is that approach, but done in visual conditions. You actually started 30 miles south of the runway with a vector to what appeared in the cockpit as an ILS, meaning having both centerline and vertical glidepath guidance. It included a DME (Distance Measuring Equiptment), which would read zero distance at the mountaintop this system 'guided' you onto. In the video, that mountaintop has two incredibly large orange-and-white checkerboard signs, probably 100' across by 60' tall, lighted at night, and can be seen in the video.

The deal was to intercept and fly this system solely on instruments down to 1.7 Miles from the mountaintop (usually in the clouds), and hopefully break out into the 'clear' enough to see BOTH the checkerboards and the runway. Here's where the head turner came in. At that point, you break out looking at a mountain / checkerboard a mile in front of you, the surrounding mountains in all directions disappearing into the clouds; the runway was outside the copilot's SIDE window, down low. If you actually went all the way to the 1.7 DME fix and did not have BOTH in sight, it was an IMMEDIATE HARD CLIMBING RIGHT TURN!. If you actually DID spot the checkerboard and the copilot had the runway as well, it was a fairly hard right turn, throttles to almost idle, final flaps (thereby committing to land) and continuing a steep descent. From the actual missed approach point, the turn to final was usually an overshoot, meaning a reversal as you flare (if really unlucky) or slightly earlier if you are really good. Make the turn early and there was another unlit and sharply rising mountaintop blocking the flight / glidepath.

NOW... throw in an increasing cross or tailwind (both very usual), lots of turbulence if the winds from China were blowing at all, and you had better be pretty good at stick and rudder, and had better have prepped the F/O to be able to not look outside, but rather be calling out the final checklist and power settings / speeds all the way down.

The terrain (Kowloon) was never more than 2000' below you at the 1.7 DME fix, and was sometimes AT Radio Altimeter Descision Height of 350 feet (rooftops and obstructions) all the way to the runway (Meaning that the Ground Proximity computer was yelling at you as well as the height callouts repeating every time you went across a rooftop).


Along with two notes that will ALWAYS get your attention.

1). Any missed approach commenced at ANY time AFTER 1.7 DME will not clear multiple obstacles and result in flight into terrain.

2). Caution for chinese junk masts to 135' on short final.

Yeah, I miss it.

Rolling out in the rain, on a wet 7000' runway after rolling one on, reversers throwing spray 50 feet in front of the wing..... everyone in the plane was ALWAYS clapping.



I just re-watched the cockpit vid posted above. They did turn a little early. See the clouds going by in the first part of the vid? That was a nice day. As they are turning final, the tower is clearing a heavy to takeoff on the same runway. Any other city in the world requires 2 minutes for wake turbulence. Not here; it was the least of your problems..... also, hear the chuckles as they are rolling out? Also very normal in the cockpit. The other fav part? The mile-plus taxi-back to the terminal watching the next few guys do the same sweat you just did.

[Normy]

I've landed and taken off from Hong Kong several dozen times, but the first time was in the fall of 2002.

Kai Tak is now a housing development.

-The new airport, Chep Lak Kok on Lantau island is for sure better [you can land there when the ceiling is 200 feet], but despite the pair of long runways...it is anything but a "piece of cake". The south runway, 07R, is the typical cargo runway and it is closest to a GIANT hill about a kilometer/1/2 mile south of the centerline. This hill extends to the west and makes your life MISERABLE due to the shear and constant turbulence. For whatever reason, it seems that the wind ALWAYS comes over the hill and messes with you! I've had 10 knot airspeed-changes almost instantaneously while in final to that runway, and this was with gentle winds 160/10!

N!

[JavaBrewer]

By far the scariest landing ever, as a passenger, was on the deck of the Reagan in a COD. One missed approach/wave == holy crap. 24 software guys onboard with 7 of them (not me thankfully) barfing up their breakfast.

[Ray B]

Geez. Kinda reminds me of the expressway visuals into LGA from the right seat of a Tristar- only nastier.

[beepbeep]

CAT3 approaches make me uneasy:

[fingpilot]

Normy!

Do you get the GPWS (mandatory) PULL UP! on approach from the south at that little island at Lantau? I think I heard that they were going to 'sculpt' the island to prevent the misses.


Ray!

How right you are! To this day, the phrase "Call the tanks" brings a special chill..... the only worse one at LGA was after clearing the RWY, was.... "Sir, please taxi to the five towers, and shut down, your gate is occupied".....

[Rikao4]

Tecug in Honduras is fun ..
@ the ones (leftover parts ) that didn't make it are left at the ends of the runway..
La Ceiba further south..is really fun...
have been on dicey runs before...La Ceiba was a true OMG moment..
was a pax..and we were so heavy...
we made it by a few hairs.

Rika

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by air-cool-me

i was going to jump seat down there for the day to see that approach..

local FSDO shut that down pretty quickly..

Its been closed down now so you cannot get the experience.

It was a good "eye opener" back in the old days. The new airport is just a plain old airport. Had to chuckle with fingpilots comment about the long taxi. The new airport at Hong Kong is just as long a taxi at times and parking is still a bear. HK is still one of my favourite cities in the world.

We did get the EGPWS warning but just gave up and disabled it for the approach after a while.

You guys want a fun approach, try Innsbruck in IFR conditions. Then shoot it VFR and see just how close the approach takes you to the mountains. Really gets your attention. Another fun one is Moscow Vukuno...

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by beepbeep

CAT3 approaches make me uneasy:

Holy effing hell!!! NO effing way could I ever do something like that!!!! Thanks for posting, but as a private non instrument rated pilot, that one will give me nightmares.

[fingpilot]

Funny thing about this thread. It makes you think about all the ones you have done in actual conditions, then gone back some nice day and shot the actual approach in visual conditions and been 'soulfull' afterwards.

Juneau. SondeStromFjord. Barrow. LAX at sunset. JFK at sunrise. Heathrow after a heavy rain. San Diego. Xian. Like Joe said, Moscow, either one.

The CAt IIIa stuff, you do eventually get used to. It got easier after autobrake came of age. The first FLIR HUDs in the G5's and retro'd to the G4's were mind boggling.

I ran an all-sports airline for several years. NHL Hockey all winter, then shifting to MLB Baseball all summer. Was a blast. The hockey guys would come up and sit on the jumpseat for the CAT II (200 feet) approaches. Breakout to touchdown about 6 seconds. Then the flare in the long body MD83' and '85's. Just before the mains touch, you actually relax the back pressure, and let the yoke go forward. The mains are behind the center of rotation, so they are actually 'retreating' as you touchdown. Once you get used to it, will be a greaser every time. But goes against every reflex you have.

Even after the touchdown and taxi-back, you had to be careful transmitting from the cockpit because of the profanity from the jumpseat. They thought what we did was fing crazy. But they would stand in front of a goal net with 250 pound guys firing a 1 pound solid puck at you at 90 MPH. Maybe there was simply a point of view issue there.....

Most people would not want to see what really goes on up there, but once you realize how it all works, it is like an average person driving down the street.

[BlueSideUp]

Just thought I'd post up pics of the IGS plate for you.

[air-cool-me]

Its been closed down now so you cannot get the experience.

oops didnt specify ... south to Tegucigalpa not west to kai tak...

Houston Fsdo said no-no because I was not in CASS at the time.


I just fly (until nov 15) a pile of crap turboprop (atr72) that can do CAT2.
I guess I am not a big boy yet because the one I have done so far scared the crap outa me. Broke out at 130 feet... captain landed because it was monitored approach. I guess I had to get my cherry pop'ed. I am sure you crusty old guys are chuckling a bit.