Anyone ever heard of KVAR? Claims to cut electricity bills.

[LeeH]

There was an article about this in our local paper. Is it a miracle or a scam?

http://www.kvarnrg.com/

[onlycafe]

completely unencumbered by the thought process i would say scam.
i'd love to be wrong though.

[kstar]

Shouldn't the place where he draws electricity be within his little suitcase "loop"? What's happening at the meter of the house, where the juice is coming from?

Looks like a gererator to me.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by kstar

Shouldn't the place where he draws electricity be within his little suitcase "loop"? What's happening at the meter of the house, where the juice is coming from?

Looks like a gererator to me.

All hail the gererator!

[LeeH]

The video on their web site is longer and more detailed.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

All hail the gererator!

Darn. You beat me to it.

[equality72521]

This is nothing more than power factor correction. It's been done for years in industrial and commercial applications on inductive loads. It is done by storing electricity in capacitors. When your demand exceeds a certain level the caps discharge providing a "boost". By getting the extra demand from the caps you reduce the demand required from the utility thereby reducing the demand charge on your bill.

[equality72521]

We have a bunch of our stores that use caps for correcting power factor.

[idontknow]

http://kvarenergyexposed.com/KVAR_The_Truth/Home.html

You'd be much cheaper off building one yourself, and building it correctly.

BTW, all the large motors in your home already have run capacitors built in.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by idontknow

http://kvarenergyexposed.com/KVAR_The_Truth/Home.html

You'd be much cheaper off building one yourself, and building it correctly.

BTW, all the large motors in your home already have run capacitors built in.

And many have start capacitors as well which help reduce demand.

[DasBoot]

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Especially when it comes to energy.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Especially when it comes to energy.

The idea isn't to reduce consumption but to reduce demand. If your house uses 100 kWh/day of consumption then the only way to reduce it is to turn something off. However, you CAN reduce demand. Demand is simply the KW at a given moment. So if your largest load is a motor in your garage, let's say it's demand is 130 KW you can reduce the demand by using the stored energy in caps to help "boost" the motor's starting current and reduce the demand on your utility line to say 120 KW. You have reduced your demand but you have not reduced your consumption.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by equality72521

You have reduced your demand but you have not reduced your consumption.

So, if you haven't reduced consumption, how is this device going to save on your electric bill?

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

So, if you haven't reduced consumption, how is this device going to save on your electric bill?

By reducing the demand charge. Utilities charge on consumption (kWh) and also on demand (KW). You're kWh charge is for consumption and your KW charge is for your demand. You're demand charge rate is called a ratchet. If you are in a low ratchet your demand charges are low, but if your demand ratchet is high you pay through the nose. Utilities have to build plants large enough to handle the demand of the area they service even if the peak demand only reaches their max once a year. Because of this they need to build higher capacity plants. They pass the cost onto the people. They ratchet the cost based on your individual demand. If you can keep your demand down your demand ratchet is decreased and therefore your demand charge is less. You aren't necessarily saving electricity, you are saving demand charges.

[LeeH]

So, living in Phoenix where my heat pump starts many, many times each day this might actually pay off? The local distributor says there's a $500 tax credit ($300 year 1, $200 year 2) for putting one in. The cost of the unit is $550. They claim 8%-25% savings on your power bill.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by LeeH

So, living in Phoenix where my heat pump starts many, many times each day this might actually pay off?

That depends on what your KW charges are as well as the cost of the unit. Remember, you will pay the same kWh charges because you aren't getting free electricity. You are just reducing the demand, your consumption remains the same. If your demand charges are only $10/month then the payback may be way too low. Think of this as snake oil in a way. Fundamentally, it works to reduce demand but unless you're paying seriously high demand charges it won't pay back in your lifetime.

edit for your edit. If the incentive nearly pays for it then you are not really losing anything. The utilities will offer incentives to customers to reduce demand. This helps utilities like SRP keep from building higher capacity plants.

[idontknow]

IIRC At least in Fla, we only get charged on our kwh used in residences. There aren't demand charges until you get to 3 phase buildings and even then only once you hit a kwh barrier.

Also, the caps in the system still absorb power. There is no free 10kwh knocked off your bill just by installing them. The 130 kw motor thats now pulling 120kw is only doing so because the caps charged up 10 kw earlier in the day. Think of capacitors like batteries, they charge up when the load is low and feed out when demand is high. Since residences don't get charged for demand, there is no incentive to install them. If anything your bill may be higher as the electric meter can now read the full current draw of the inductive loads (motors) rather than only a portion of them due to power factor losses.

edit: though in industrial complexes where they do get charged big time for demand and they have massive multiple 100+hp electric motors, they could easily see 8%-25% savings in a properly sized cap bank.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by idontknow

IIRC At least in Fla, we only get charged on our kwh used in residences. There aren't demand charges until you get to 3 phase buildings and even then only once you hit a kwh barrier.

Also, the caps in the system still absorb power. There is no free 10kwh knocked off your bill just by installing them. The 130 kw motor thats now pulling 120kw is only doing so because the caps charged up 10 kw earlier in the day. Think of capacitors like batteries, they charge up when the load is low and feed out when demand is high. Since residences don't get charged for demand, there is no incentive to install them. If anything your bill may be higher as the electric meter can now read the full current draw of the inductive loads (motors) rather than only a portion of them due to power factor losses.

That's what I'm saying, you still consume the same amount electricity. If you aren't getting demand charges then there is absolutely NO SAVINGS.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by equality72521

By reducing the demand charge. Utilities charge on consumption (kWh) and also on demand (KW). You're kWh charge is for consumption and your KW charge is for your demand. You're demand charge rate is called a ratchet. If you are in a low ratchet your demand charges are low, but if your demand ratchet is high you pay through the nose. Utilities have to build plants large enough to handle the demand of the area they service even if the peak demand only reaches their max once a year. Because of this they need to build higher capacity plants. They pass the cost onto the people. They ratchet the cost based on your individual demand. If you can keep your demand down your demand ratchet is decreased and therefore your demand charge is less. You aren't necessarily saving electricity, you are saving demand charges.

so this is how they spread the cost of the additional equipment needed to cover the load above what MOST use?

am i saying that right?

[berettafan]

what about the way electrical power is bought via a market that fluctuates according to demand? would such a product be condusive to savings via time of use planning?