Does your company ever set people up to fail instead of just laying them off? - Page 2

masraum · 01-21-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

You should talk to my wife - about 20 years experience in retail management before she got out and into hotels.

Retail "management goals" are a complete joke. .... < snipped for brevity >

Yeah, I quickly saw the light, and got out.

They told everyone that they wanted every store to look the same so if you went into 5 different stores in 5 different cities, you'd be able to find the same parts in the same places.

They sent everyone a plan-o-gram with the layout. They told everyone not to vary from the plan-o-gram. My shelving was 4" too short, and needed to be replaced. I never got the new shelving and the Dist Mgr knew it. I got a slap on the hand for not getting the work done. When I responded that I'd never gotten the correct shelving they swept that under the carpet (since that had been their responsibility). At one point, I even heard another DM talk about how in the "old days" they'd have hung stuff from the ceiling to get it in the store if they had to (obviously, not to their "all stores the same plan-o-gram).

The managers' schedule was a minimum of 55hrs/week, but I had been told by the DM that 55 really wasn't enough, it would take at least 60-65 hours a week to get the job done. All for 21k + bonuses (about $25-26k/year) back in the early 90's.

Yeah, it was a learning experience. I feel sorry for folks in retail these days.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

The boss just handed me a new account in Austin, which looks to have some real opportunity. Of course, justifying a trip to meet with them in person will take a good week or so of planning and lining up other meetings there. I emailed him about this and got a pretty stern response and am supposed to call him in a few minutes to discuss. Turns out all these metrics mean nothing as long as your revenue is at goal. If it's below, you have to have all the other metrics met to show you're making an effort. Unfortunately, I think meeting all these other metrics seriously undermines my efforts to bring in more revenue. This will be a fun phone call and might start the clock ticking on my time left at this job, if it isn't already ticking.

legion · 01-21-2009, 08:21 AM

My friends who worked in retail management all have similar stories, without exception. It doesn't matter the kind of store: electronics, clothing, department stores, or hardware. It is corporate's genius when they succeed and the store manager's fault when they fail. Without exception, all of my friends in retail management have gone back to college and moved on to another industry.

It seems to me, there is a huge opportunity in retail. If a company could come up with a model that wasn't so draconian and actually rewarded stores when they figured out how to succeed (as opposed to punishing them for not following the corporate plan, punishing them for not making goals, punishing them for making goals with unrealistic goals next time...), they'd probably have a thriving business. Part of the reason why retail is so bad is because talented people do not want to work in that industry. The rules and procedures most companies have guarantee massive turnover. They drive the good people out, while the idiots just move from store to store, job to job. There is not consistency from year to year because a single store rarely has any of the same people from year to year.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Just got off the phone with the boss and feel a lot better now, though I know his enthusiasm for me can change with the weather. His emails feel like flames and arrows and then he's the good cop once on the phone, all encouraging and cool. So it looks like these in-person meetings numbers are only measured every few mos., not every week. And if I'm at 100% of goal, they don't matter anymore. Bottom line is I need to get to 100% goal quickly before I have a severe deficit of meetings to make up for. And since last year was so bad, my goal is much lower this year. Better yet, we get commissions now on anything above 70% of goal and extra on anyting above 100%. So it's not as bad as I thought.

masraum · 01-21-2009, 08:45 AM

Glad to hear that you aren't getting completely reamed.

Superman · 01-21-2009, 09:19 AM

I just read the opening post, as I am pressed for time. But this is the sort of reason my career is labor relations. In my humble opinion, a company's human resources stands as their most important asset. Distribution systems, technologies, all that stuff is built by your people.

Incentive systems tend to be among the most laughable of all company policies and communications. They almost invariably cause bad behavior and poor performance. There are ways to get superior performance from your people, but Rick is not describing one. Sadly, this company is probably attempting to create a hierarchy of staff in terms of some measures the company has dreamed up. What will happen here is that the company will lose the folks who think for themselves and know how to measure real success. The remaining staff will be the ones who are effective at playing to the stated criteria. These people tend to not give a $h!t about actual success.

The best thing I can say about companies like this.....is that they are convenient competitors. I like working with companies who are competing with companies run by bean-counters. It is my professional position that the real game is attracting and retaining the right people, and then motivating them in an atmosphere of safety and creativity.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I have to reluctantly agree with most of Supe's last post. HR at my company is mostly trainers. But since we're not hiring anyone now, they look for new ways to appear to be busy by creating all kinds of webinars for us to attend. One series of which is called "Money Making Mondays". I call them "Time Crushing Mondays". Now we have performance reviews coming up, so, of course, we have to have an hour-long webinar on that and I'm sure there will be a follow-up once the reviews are all done. And today we have one on the 2009 comp. plan, which only lasts 45 min. Every year we get a new comp. plan and they always say how great it will be and how lucrative it is for everyone. Yet, somehow we don't seem to be making more money. It's pretty frustrating, but that's the price I pay for not starting my own business and staying working for the man.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Rick, you need to start your own busniess. Take your customers with you!

Superman · 01-21-2009, 02:07 PM

It sounds like you're hearing a clear message from your employer. It's a common message that sounds like "We don't know what we're doing but you can be sure we will continue to frustrate and confuse you, and create complete disconnect between performance and reward." Which might as well also say "We will be setting up similar disappointments with our customers and this will create an ongoing need for a small but focused competitor who will form relationships with those customers and serve their needs."

VincentVega · 01-21-2009, 02:38 PM

Setting up travel can be a PITA, but it usually pays off 10x in the long run.

I have a large territory too and it's touch sometimes to coordinate. Try to make a region/state a regular trip. First week of the month go south, 2nd go west... Keep it regular and plan to work from the hotel for 1 full day.

Oh, Costco Amex is great for travel.

SLO-BOB · 01-21-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

With a territory that large it seems you could quickly put together a doc that illustrates how impossible that is.

Which would quickly place a big red target on your forehead

Personally I'd hit that goal real hard and book the most expensive flights available.

Now yer talkin.

Seriously, that is sooooo typical management. Explaining the real world facts to them makes you a non-team player. Punishing them by following the new rules to the letter is the best way to highlight their stupidity.

A while ago I would have said that if you are talented you could get away with ignoring the stupid new rules and quotas because they need you. These days management seems more prone to fear those with talent because it illustrates how worthless and/or expendable they are. Quotas are a great way to weed out talent because those who are very good at what they do operate at a higher saturation than a slacker, making it very difficult to make new, higher quotas. The slacker simply needs to up his game to see results. The management loves it because a "non-threat" has increased his game by a required percentage making the manager look like a "motivator".

And no, we do not do that in my company. That's why I am in business for myself -to get away from that crap.

Dave L · 01-21-2009, 03:19 PM

Last year my target for H1 was $6M. This year its just over $10M. I found an article stating that sales in the industry I work is set to shrink by 8.7%. Anyone want to know where the author got that figure?

The company I work for of course.

I just got my numbers for the first 2 weeks of the year and an currently at 50% of plan. If I were to take my last years quota subract the 8.7% I would be right around target.

Sonic dB · Sonic dB's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

In catching up on work emails today, I saw our new monthly non-revenue quotas for 2009, which are probably unattainable for folks with small territories who live in big cities and totally unrealistic for folks who have huge territories in non-coastal cities.

In 2008 we had to have 35 database activities per week, eight of which had to be either in-person or telephone meetings with clients or prospects. Not too unreasonable at seven per day. And it was totally reasonable for folks like me who live in Phoenix and whose territory goes from Seattle to Austin. Obviously, I have to do most of my client contact via phone and email with occasional trips. And of course, my boss always complained about my very spartan expense reports when I did travel. I never expensed a personal meal or even personal mileage when driving to meet a friend or see a concert in a city I was visiting.

For 2009 we are expected to have 10 in-person meetings PER WEEK, phone meetings no longer count and we also have to call 10 clients or prospects per day. Of the 15-20 new clients I stole from competitors in 2008, I only met ONE of them in person. All others were done through multiple emails and phone calls, which no longer count.

It's bad enough that this stuff is more important to mgt. than actual revenue. But now we have all been warned that we'll be put on double secret probabtion if we fall short one month and could be terminated if our three month average is short. I seriously wonder if this is just a way to get folks fired for cause instead of laying them off. Surely, mgt. knows their folks in Minneapolis, El Paso, Phoenix, Albuquerque can't possibly line up six in-person meetings per week. Last time I rode my bike to CA and met with seven clients in four cities over a week, it took me almost a week of phone calls and emails to line them all up. Time to polish that resume.

What do you sell? honestly 10 in person meetings a week is not a whole lot.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonic dB

What do you sell? honestly 10 in person meetings a week is not a whole lot.

It's a whole lot when 99.9% of your territory is an airplane ride away from where you live. For the folks who live in LA, NYC, DC or Chicago, no 10 meetings a week is not a whole lot. But the company wants folks to work remotely in large territories and they also complain a ton about expenses. Furthermore, I've demonstrated by stealing business from competitors that phone and email work just fine when dealing with small-midsize clients far from where I live. Now, if the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which just got handed to me as a client, calls and says they want to see me tomorrow, then I'd be on the next plane to SEATAC. But I don't have many clients with their kind of budget.

We sell a newswire service and broadcast services. I always find it kind of ironic for a company that specializes in webinars and high-tech mass communications services to demand in-person meetings when we're telling those clients our services make them no longer have to travel to far away meetings.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

Seriously, that is sooooo typical management. Explaining the real world facts to them makes you a non-team player. Punishing them by following the new rules to the letter is the best way to highlight their stupidity.

A while ago I would have said that if you are talented you could get away with ignoring the stupid new rules and quotas because they need you. These days management seems more prone to fear those with talent because it illustrates how worthless and/or expendable they are. Quotas are a great way to weed out talent because those who are very good at what they do operate at a higher saturation than a slacker, making it very difficult to make new, higher quotas. The slacker simply needs to up his game to see results. The management loves it because a "non-threat" has increased his game by a required percentage making the manager look like a "motivator".

And no, we do not do that in my company. That's why I am in business for myself -to get away from that crap.

Trying to argue about the new rules with my boss or his bosses is a non-starter. I'm not even close to #1 in the company (anymore) and you're only as good as your last month, which was all vacation for me

. However, my boss did say today that the rules don't matter for those who are at 100% of goal each month. He doesn't care if I have zero meetings and zero new clients, as long as I find a way to book about $150k a month in revenue. Looks like I'll be arranging travel soon to some places in the SW US and can hopefully meet up with some Pelican folks for happy hours and dinners.

SLO-BOB · 01-21-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Looks like I'll be arranging travel soon to some places in the SW US and can hopefully meet up with some Pelican folks for happy hours and dinners.

Enter the silver lining.

Sonic dB · Sonic dB's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

It's a whole lot when 99.9% of your territory is an airplane ride away from where you live. For the folks who live in LA, NYC, DC or Chicago, no 10 meetings a week is not a whole lot. But the company wants folks to work remotely in large territories and they also complain a ton about expenses. Furthermore, I've demonstrated by stealing business from competitors that phone and email work just fine when dealing with small-midsize clients far from where I live. Now, if the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which just got handed to me as a client, calls and says they want to see me tomorrow, then I'd be on the next plane to SEATAC. But I don't have many clients with their kind of budget.

We sell a newswire service and broadcast services. I always find it kind of ironic for a company that specializes in webinars and high-tech mass communications services to demand in-person meetings when we're telling those clients our services make them no longer have to travel to far away meetings.

That makes sense...your sales cycle and process is fairly long and would require longer, more in-depth meetings...

9dreizig · 01-21-2009, 06:32 PM

Dude, got any customers in Reno ??
BTW, whenever I have worked for a company that micro-managed me, I found a new job. Sales guys should be graded on performance not paperwork..

LWJ · 01-21-2009, 08:17 PM

Rick,

1) My sympathy. I have been there. The absolute stupidity of some businesses is remarkable.
2) Play their game. You know what you need to do to make your numbers and also what you need to do to look good. Do both. The hell with ethics. When a company sets you up to fail you unfortunately have to take care of #1. Yourself.
3) I FIRMLY believe that you get what you pay for. Example: if they pay for your position to generate expenses, they will get expenses. If they had a moment of wisdom and paid for profitable business, they would see more of that.
4) Good luck. The economy is poor. Gut it out as best you can. In my personal situation, even though I was a super star salesman, I got canned. 7 years later, I am making more, love my job, and anticipate increasing income by another 2x.

Larry

Dottore · 01-21-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Trying to argue about the new rules with my boss or his bosses is a non-starter. I'm not even close to #1 in the company (anymore) and you're only as good as your last month, which was all vacation for me

. However, my boss did say today that the rules don't matter for those who are at 100% of goal each month. He doesn't care if I have zero meetings and zero new clients, as long as I find a way to book about $150k a month in revenue. Looks like I'll be arranging travel soon to some places in the SW US and can hopefully meet up with some Pelican folks for happy hours and dinners.

I always think of Glengarry Glenross when I hear these kinds of stories. It must be absolute hell working sales in an organization such as this. I can't believe this sort of job could ever really make anyone happy.

Or can it? Am I missing something?

Might this be an opportunity to start working on something more satisfying long-term?