GM to kill Saturn and high-performance operations

[Jim Richards]

non political

[12own911]

I love my VUE... long live Saturn...

[MMARSH]

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6454648/car-news/gms-performance-division-no-future-productfor-now-cts-v-coupe-possible/index.html

[onewhippedpuppy]

It'll be GREAT! GM will focus on building "green" cars that sell for a premium and 90% of the public won't want to buy. Then the govt, having already invested billions into the company, will heavily subsidize their products so they sell (throwing good money after bad). All the while the taxpayers bend over.........

It's easy to scoff, but MMARSH's link above states that GM has suspended most new products to focus on their plug in Volt. The Volt is a promising new car, but at $40k there's a LOT of people that won't be interested. Halting work on other new products........not a good idea.

[MotoSook]

As soon as GM's plan was announced to Congress, Saturn sent out an e-mail to its customers (well I got one anyhow) indicating that they would continue to source GM products through 2011. After 2011 they would source products from other manufacturers.

I think this actually may be a smarter move than what Wagner has planned for GM. Saturn has the dealer network and they haven't been an excessive brand as a subsidiary of GM. The dealers have their contracts with Saturn, not GM, so they will likely maintain those contracts.

Saturn has already done a better job of sourcing other products from other markets than any of the GM brands ever did. Their current product offering is on of the best available from the GM family. Even before the economy crashed they were bringing to market the smaller fuel efficient cars that appeared to be taking quality in a better direction.

The Aura and Astra are great bargains at their price points, with more than adequate drivetrains available to the average consumer with great gas mileage. I rented an Aura for business travel not too long ago, and I was pleasantly surprised by the interior quality. When I was at the dealer for maintenace I checked out they Astra and was also surprised they could offer such a car for a starting price of about $17,000.

Those two vehicles could really satisfy a large market segment under the current economic conditions. With 5yr/100k mile warranty, the average buyer should recognized the value available. The marketing hasn't been great with these cars, but I suspect that has something to do with the general marketing philosophy within GM.

The fact that Saturn is looking to source products from other brands is a smart move. If they are successful, they will should be able to bring to the US market cars that GM hasn't been able to do due to what I suspect as GM pride. With Saturn operating independent of GM, I hope to see them bring European and Japanese platforms to the US market under the Saturn name, which will minimize the development costs for some of those products. With the likes of Honda, Toyota or even BMW providing the engineering and product development, Saturn can benefit greatly if they can repackage products at a reduced cost to the consumer.

I own a Saturn after years of telling myself that I would never buy GM products post great disappointment and dissatisfaction with GM products. Some of you may remember my thread when I was shopping for a new family vehicle. I was hours from buying an Acura MDX when my wife and I decided to look at the new Outlook. After climbing in and out of an unlocked Outlook at the dealer's closed lot on a Sunday, we had to drive one as soon as we could. Being a little prejudice of GM products I researched exhaustively before I test drove it. I brutally tested the vehicle to make sure it performed as promised, and I walked away satisfied that it would be a good vehicle for the family.

On of my big concerns about the vehicle was quality of construction and interior material. I went back and forth to compare the Outlook to the MDX, and there wasn't a lot of compromises in the Saturn given the much lower price point of the Saturn. Everytime I walked away from the MDX, I was satisfied that the higher price of the MDX was not worth the premium price point.

So we purchased the Outlook. We've since put over 12,000 miles on the Outlook, including a 3000 mile roadtrip from Chicago to Florida packed with five kids (incl. a newborn). The kids loved the ride and we suffered no regrets from being trapped in the vehicle for 22+ hrs each way of the trip.

I've owned a lot of vehicles and I've driven all of them through every climate condition that the average owner would see. In comparison to the other vehicles (including my BMW 5 series) the Saturn satisfied and exceeded my expectations.

So as an owner and a mechanical engineer with high expectations of my vehicles, I believe the current Saturn product line will be a good start for an independent Saturn. If they understand the customer needs and plan to satisfy those needs with vehicles with good value, they will be a successful brand while the other GM brands continue to suffer.

It will be ironic when the low end GM brand on day exceeds the success of GM's more "valued" brands.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Zef

Saturn's car are so crap....Like all the GM products anyways.....!

GM has made so many legendary classic cars over the years it's not even funny. You are a hatin' know nothing amigo.

It's nice to see the Saturn love fest, but having bought and sold several dozen of them, IMO they are no better or worse than any other GM in quality.

[MotoSook]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

It's nice to see the Saturn love fest, but having bought and sold several dozen of them, IMO they are no better or worse than any other GM in quality.

Have you lived with any of the new ones? My wife had an older SL2 model, and it was just another GM product that I would never had bought myself. If you haven't lived with a new model, then you're speaking from the same perspective of which you've indicted Zef.

As for the old muscle cars of the past that has many GM faithfuls still clinging to the GM brands...they were not that great. Anyone could build a 4000 lb sled with an oversized engine in it back in those days which saw "sport cars" capable of .7 lateral G's with a solid rear axle and hauling grinning drivers down the highway ignorant of what a great sports car really should be like. Nostalgia doesn't make for a great car.

[SuperXRAY]

They will continue to spend 10's of millions in NASCAR though, a business that does not return the favor. Every tax payer should get a free car and season passes for all the races any car company that collects bailout money.

Car companies, and most companies, don't produce products people want...they produce products they want people to have. There is a big difference.

[pwd72s]

You take Government money, you have government rules. Government doesn't like performance cars these days.

[Jim Richards]

Souk, is Opel one of Saturn's suppliers? Have you heard plans for Opel in light of the current econ. conditions? Just curious.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

You take Government money, you have government rules. Government doesn't like performance cars these days.

Probably very true. I'm not sure anyone knows what sort of strings are attached to GM's soon-to-be $45-$55B bailout. But if the current administration, Pelosi and Reid have their way, Volts will be the only cars the company will build.

Many car analysts suggest this bailout is destined to fail from two angles: 1) the car companies don't have the capacity to turn themselves around before the money runs out - case in point; GM asking for another $30 Billion just this week; 2) not everyone wants a hybrid or electric vehicle.

Universally, though, everyone agrees another 200,000 - or however many work for GM - on the dole would be catastrophic.

Hmmm...I'm not sure. Would it be catastrophic?

[strupgolf]

I don't know. 200,000 working for $25-75.00 per hour on TAXPAYERS money,(because the big 3 are broke), or 200,000 getting unemployment,(meaning much less per hour) on TAXPAYERS money. It just does not work out either way. Detroit is screwed either way, and so are we.

[MotoSook]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Souk, is Opel one of Saturn's suppliers? Have you heard plans for Opel in light of the current econ. conditions? Just curious.

Jim, I've not heard any real news about Opel. Someone posted on an Opel enthusiat site that Opel is profitable and another made a good point about Opel (and Vauxhall) being a sensible link to the European market for GM. If Opel is indeed profitable it would be nonsense for Wagoner to cut Opel. I suppose Saturn would continue to source from GM via the Opel line since the Opel cars are in line with what I see as the Saturn mission.

I think in today's economic condition smaller companies that can pull in resources from other companies are more likely to survive. Chrysler made a good move with their Fiat deal even though it didn't see any capital out of the deal. If Chrysler can be reorg'd into a smaller efficient company they may have a chance, but that's a big maybe as they have too much "American" fat in labor, manufacturing and engineering.

Auto manufacturers have been over stretching themselves way too much in the last 20 years or more thinking that there will always be a market. So they spend like there will always be an increasing demand for their products. They should have seen the world demand decreasing as population changed in numbers and desire for quality product for less money. A decreasing volume and margin! (the push to gain market share in China won't work (not in the next 5 or 10 yrs)...the Chinese population won't spend like the Americans did...and although the numbers are great, they are not financially capable)

I made the point in another thread about the American market as it would be affected by the baby boomers as they started to retire. That change would see households reducing the number of cars they buy and how they would demand a more quality product even if it meant they would spend more for their "final" vehicle. I see that happening with all the major consumer goods (homes, appliances, cars....). Younger families with smarter heads of household would be less likely to have multiple cars in the driveway as well, if they are not simply smaller families compared to those of the 70's and 80's. So basically, the volumes of which the manufacturers have counted on has changed drastically. Consumers will shift from buying a car every 4 years to maybe every 8 years due to a more frugal habit or improved products (remember the cars that were useless after 4 years? No so the case anymore).

With that said, a simple bailout with hopes of a revived market to rival the last 20 years is not going to work. There has been a glout of manufacturing and subsequently a bloated workforce that has to be trimmed. It's going to be a major shift in the auto market and manfacturing. Our politicians and the companies they are bailing out just haven't seen the light in my opinion. Refugee workers from that industry will just have to find jobs in other industries as the companies will not be able to create enough jobs to maintain the numbers of employees no matter how much money the government continues to handout.

[Jim Richards]

If Opel is indeed profitable it would be nonsense for Wagner to cut Opel.

Hence, it's a certainty.