Byron, was this you? great job!

[billyboy]

1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting
By ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH
jlebovich@MiamiHerald.com

One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.

Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.

A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.

The customer and robber exchanged fire.

The robber was shot dead at the scene.

The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.

At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.

[Bill Douglas]

We should all place bets on the customer's (winner) calibre. I say "45ACP."

[DasBoot]

Wondering exactly how the customer ended up getting got shot. He had the element of surprise. Miami is a sheet-hole.

[nynor]

9mm is my bet.

[DasBoot]

A .45 is a big gun to carry in SoFLA, especially as the weather warms up (like it is now). I only carry mine (1911) in the car/truck and carry a .38 (442) in my back pocket when on foot.

[9dreizig]

Poor guy would be under arrest in CA

[DasBoot]

We're seeing more and more stories like this lately. Citizens shooting back in home burglaries, car-jackings, ATM muggings, convenience store clerks, etc. An off-duty cop shot/killed a guy that rushed him when he answered a knock @ the front door of his home. Music teacher shot a guy (who had a gun) breaking in thru his sliding glass door late night.

The citizens have had enough!

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

Poor guy would be under arrest in CA

True, true. And would be sued into homelessness by the perps family.

FL passed the "Castle Doctrine" last year and one of the stipulations exempts a CCW holder from criminal AND civil prosecution if the shooting is determined "good" by the DA.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

Wondering exactly how the customer ended up getting got shot. He had the element of surprise. Miami is a sheet-hole.

He probably warned the guy with a "freeze" or something.

Very few people are of the mindset to just draw and blast a guy from behind. That would of course be the smart thing to do tactically, but legally that could cause you some problems.

[masraum]

Well, if it had been Byron, he'd have an excuse for falling apart like he has been lately.

[t951]

well a 45 is the only thing i carry, and i live in Florida.

I have been seriously considering the FN 5Seven. 20 rounds, super high velocity. The down side is the cost of ammo, and the fact that I cant get that ammo at walmart.

My 45 is what I think is the perfect defense weapon.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

...but legally that could cause you some problems.

Nope. Someone pulls a gun and threatens you or someone else, you are allowed to take them out. No warning required. Our instructor covered this specifically in the CCW class. I imagine there are "rules of engagement" buried in the law somewhere, but the Castle Doctrine is pretty straight-forward:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle (or place you are legally allowed to be) is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others.

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.

Here's a story of a woman stabbing a guy in the back during a road-rage fight and was not prosecuted:

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.politics/2008-09/msg04641.html

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by t951

well a 45 is the only thing i carry, and i live in Florida.

Where/how do you carry? And please don't say "fanny pack". May as well paint a target on your belly. I have a cop-friend who carries a fanny-pack off duty and I give him crap about it every time I see him. Must have the element of surprise. Fanny pack says "shoot me first".

Even my little .38 gets hot/sweaty in the back pocket. Have to move it around occasionally.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

True, true. And would be sued into homelessness by the perps family.

FL passed the "Castle Doctrine" last year and one of the stipulations exempts a CCW holder from criminal AND civil prosecution if the shooting is determined "good" by the DA.

Its called the "Make My Day Law" here in OK. Not sure of the exact wording but it basically says if you are in clear and present danger you are in the clear to shoot.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

Its called the "Make My Day Law" here in OK. Not sure of the exact wording but it basically says if you are in clear and present danger you are in the clear to shoot.

They call it the "Stand Your Ground" law here.

Here's the text (if anyone is interested). I added the highlights that would pertain to the subject matter:

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.–A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776.08 Forcible felony.–”Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.–

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle . . .
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, . . .

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

(5) As used in this section, the term:

(a) “Dwelling” means . . .
(b) “Residence” means . . .
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.–

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, . . .


776.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

[Rick Lee]

It gets pretty warm here in the summer and I alternate between a SIG P239 and P220 Carry, usually in the small of my back, inside the waistband. Doesn't matter if I print or my shirt comes up when I bend down to pick something up, as open carry is legal here too. Makes no difference if anyone sees it, as long as you're not in a no-guns zone. For those I use extra caution when carrying.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

Nope. Someone pulls a gun and threatens you or someone else, you are allowed to take them out. No warning required. Our instructor covered this specifically in the CCW class. I imagine there are "rules of engagement" buried in the law somewhere, but the Castle Doctrine is pretty straight-forward:

[i]One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle (or place you are legally allowed to be) is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others.

Well written.

Now that's what i call a sensible gun law.

[t951]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

Where/how do you carry? And please don't say "fanny pack". May as well paint a target on your belly. I have a cop-friend who carries a fanny-pack off duty and I give him crap about it every time I see him. Must have the element of surprise. Fanny pack says "shoot me first".

Even my little .38 gets hot/sweaty in the back pocket. Have to move it around occasionally.

I only carry occasionally......pretty rarely actually.

I have to wear suit jackets, so it goes in my pocket in there.....its bulky, but when I was having to drive through Liberty city to get to clients in other parts of miami, it was very tolerable.

When not wearing a suit jacket, I had it in my bag.

[DasBoot]

No open carry in FL. If you print or expose it, you can lose your permit and be prosecuted.

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

It gets pretty warm here in the summer and I alternate between a SIG P239 and P220 Carry, usually in the small of my back, inside the waistband. Doesn't matter if I print or my shirt comes up when I bend down to pick something up, as open carry is legal here too. Makes no difference if anyone sees it, as long as you're not in a no-guns zone. For those I use extra caution when carrying.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by t951

I only carry occasionally......pretty rarely actually.

Yeah, Lake Mary is pretty tame from what I hear (isn't there a big car show there...or am I thinking of Mt. Dora...?). Guess you might need it to take out the occasional geezer who cuts in line at the early-bird.