did anyone go to MIT?

[david911]

I went to MIT, and I also interview prospective freshman. I would be happy to talk with you.

MIT offers a very broad education, with many courses in many different disciplines. As an undergraduate, you will have to take at least 8 humanities classes and another 9 science classes to graduate. This is in additional to what is required for your major.

MIT is really hard to get into - there is no magic formula of grades and test scores that guarantees admission. Last year they admitted approximately 10% of students that applied. I interviewed 15 students, at least 5 I thought were good, and only 1 got in.

MIT also offers need blind admissions and meets 100% of what they determine to be financial need. The cost of school should not determine whether to apply to that school - leave the financial decision to be what school to attend.

MIT is a unique place. So are many different colleges. What is most important is to try and find ones that seem to "fit" the student.

-David

[mppickett]

If he's interested in computers, Carnegie Mellon has the top ranked CS school in the US. They're very directed towards making sure grads are successful in the job market after graduation (from a dad who thought he got a good payback on the investment).

Originally Posted by billwagnon

I think Wayne did.

My son is a junior in high school and got a 35 on the ACT and 2210 on SAT (he is taking them again to see if he can improve). He is really interested in MIT and I'm trying to get information about the process of getting in, and maybe get him the chance to correspond or talk to someone who has been through it.

He is very good at math and I think he is leaning toward computers or engineering but he is also interested in psychology.

[MotoSook]

Speaking from a professional engineer's prospective, I would not think ahead to a graduate degree until the student has made it passed the bachelor's degree. Sure a master's degree will be nice to have, but in some cases it is unnecessary and can over qualify a candidate for a job. Let's face it, the reason we go to college is to get a job in a profession we want to be in.

Choosing a profession is more important that just going to college and graduating. If one graduates with a degree that is not useful to the real world, one has just wasted 4 or 5 years of life and college tuition. I don't buy this theory that a BA or BS is a stepping stone to a graduate degree. A graduate degree is not necessary to be successful in a professional life. One could argue that the graduate degree was a Plan B after Plan A (the BS or BA) didn't pan out. Just a thought. And if I had to hire a recent grad, whether they had a MS or BS, I would certainly hire the BS grad for less money. MS or BS, that candidate still has to be trained and they still have to learn the industry. A MS is no guaranty that the candidate is more capable of learning more quickly than the BS candidate.

I recently heard a recent grad whine about wasting her years and money on NPR, because she couldn't find a job. (They never did reveal what her degree was in.) NPR did a story about whether it was worth it to go to college in these times. Of course it's worth it; however, if a student is going to spend 4 years and thousands of dollars to get a history or pyschology degree, then expect to fine a well paying job after graduation they have been misled.

I went to school with too many kids whose parents sent them off to college to be educated but failed to informed them that simply having a college degree won't necessary help them find a good job after college. A lot of my friends who got a History, Literature, Pyschology, etc degree ended up going into some job completely unrelated to their field of study....for less money than than those who had a well thought out career goal. They simply went to college for the college experience.

Back to Bill's kid and a potential for a career in engineering...

There was a thread here not to long ago started by a student at the U of Mexico about the state of engineering grads in the US compared to overseas. Basically the number of US engineering grads has not increased at the same rate as the rate in other countries. Even in today's economic conditions, my company is finding it difficult to hire good engineers. I also see a lot of engineers that really aren't any smarter after years of experience than some new grads. Engineering isn't something that you can be great at simply because you have an engineering degree. If Bill's kid is really interested in engineering and has the "knack" for engineering I have no doubt the he will suceed with just a BS from any certified engineering school. MIT is great, but I don't know that it will prepare him for the real world any better than some other school. The connections and the "MIT shine" will open doors, but that's where it stops. If the candidate doesn't have everything else going for him/her, not good hiring manager is going to pay the extra money to bring on an MIT grad over a grad from some smaller less prestigious school.

I had two roommates in college that ultimate went to MIT for graduate degrees. I was content with two BS degrees. Having two BS degrees opened doors, and I am just using one degree. I am certain I'm better off finanacially than they are with their MIT doctorates. So the thought that an MIT degree is going to guaranty success is out of date in today's world.

Bill's kid shows interest in fields that are core disciplines in modern society. It's best to develop that interest and help the kid plan or think about planning a carreer path so that college is the means to an end...a step to achieving the goal of a sucessful carreer. Telling the kid to spend 4 yrs in college to decide if he's going to want to be in CS or engineering is just too modern day American where parents are too quick to keep their kids cuddled with the comfort that mom and dad will always be there.

When your kid leaves home for college, that's when you have to be certain that they have a goal and they will spend the next 4-5 years fighting to achieve that goal while still shielded from the brutal reality of the real world. If they don't they will have to deal with it when they graduate and move back in with mom and dad.

Bill's kid already has great testing scores. The fact that he wants to improve them is great! That's the spirit that will set him apart from the other students. Nuture that spirit and help him set career goals now...not when he's 1/2 way into a 4 yr degree...a degree that may narrow his carreer path. Don't let the degree choose the career....choose the career and then go after the degree to make it easier to get into the career of his choice. Help him learn what his career choices are and then help him learn what that career may be like....if he turns away...then help him choose another....

[David]

^^^ +1

This is way too soon to think about grad school. My advice: go to the best school that accepts you. The money issue is second as any good school will take care of its students if needed.

[rick-l]

Originally Posted by 125shifter

^^^ +1

This is way too soon to think about grad school. My advice: go to the best school that accepts you. The money issue is second as any good school will take care of its students if needed.

Grad school came up because someone suggested getting a BA degree or a degree in anything and then going to grad school.

[mattdavis11]

He should probably skip college and get a head start on being a tax payer. We need more of those right now than a bunch of college grads.

[tabs]

I am truly impressed with the array of talent, education and achievement of the members of this Board. I am alos somewhat flattered that so many of you hold me in ahhh high regard. I wish ya would all tell Mother that, maybe she would lighten up. Anyway after observing you all for a number of years one is able to see the level of sophistication, the ability to abstract, to think and in general the level of knowledge each of you poesses.

When one writes it is impossible not to reveal your true selves, as when you write you are in a sense talking to your selves with out immediate feedback etc. what I have found is that each person has a unique set of vocabulary and phraselogy. And to make a long story short as far as I can see you are all still fking peasants to me.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Souk

Speaking from a professional engineer's prospective, I would not think ahead to a graduate degree until the student has made it passed the bachelor's degree. Sure a master's degree will be nice to have, but in some cases it is unnecessary and can over qualify a candidate for a job. Let's face it, the reason we go to college is to get a job in a profession we want to be in.

Choosing a profession is more important that just going to college and graduating. If one graduates with a degree that is not useful to the real world, one has just wasted 4 or 5 years of life and college tuition. I don't buy this theory that a BA or BS is a stepping stone to a graduate degree. A graduate degree is not necessary to be successful in a professional life. One could argue that the graduate degree was a Plan B after Plan A (the BS or BA) didn't pan out. Just a thought. And if I had to hire a recent grad, whether they had a MS or BS, I would certainly hire the BS grad for less money. MS or BS, that candidate still has to be trained and they still have to learn the industry. A MS is no guaranty that the candidate is more capable of learning more quickly than the BS candidate.

I recently heard a recent grad whine about wasting her years and money on NPR, because she couldn't find a job. (They never did reveal what her degree was in.) NPR did a story about whether it was worth it to go to college in these times. Of course it's worth it; however, if a student is going to spend 4 years and thousands of dollars to get a history or pyschology degree, then expect to fine a well paying job after graduation they have been misled.

I went to school with too many kids whose parents sent them off to college to be educated but failed to informed them that simply having a college degree won't necessary help them find a good job after college. A lot of my friends who got a History, Literature, Pyschology, etc degree ended up going into some job completely unrelated to their field of study....for less money than than those who had a well thought out career goal. They simply went to college for the college experience.

Back to Bill's kid and a potential for a career in engineering...

There was a thread here not to long ago started by a student at the U of Mexico about the state of engineering grads in the US compared to overseas. Basically the number of US engineering grads has not increased at the same rate as the rate in other countries. Even in today's economic conditions, my company is finding it difficult to hire good engineers. I also see a lot of engineers that really aren't any smarter after years of experience than some new grads. Engineering isn't something that you can be great at simply because you have an engineering degree. If Bill's kid is really interested in engineering and has the "knack" for engineering I have no doubt the he will suceed with just a BS from any certified engineering school. MIT is great, but I don't know that it will prepare him for the real world any better than some other school. The connections and the "MIT shine" will open doors, but that's where it stops. If the candidate doesn't have everything else going for him/her, not good hiring manager is going to pay the extra money to bring on an MIT grad over a grad from some smaller less prestigious school.

I had two roommates in college that ultimate went to MIT for graduate degrees. I was content with two BS degrees. Having two BS degrees opened doors, and I am just using one degree. I am certain I'm better off finanacially than they are with their MIT doctorates. So the thought that an MIT degree is going to guaranty success is out of date in today's world.

Bill's kid shows interest in fields that are core disciplines in modern society. It's best to develop that interest and help the kid plan or think about planning a carreer path so that college is the means to an end...a step to achieving the goal of a sucessful carreer. Telling the kid to spend 4 yrs in college to decide if he's going to want to be in CS or engineering is just too modern day American where parents are too quick to keep their kids cuddled with the comfort that mom and dad will always be there.

When your kid leaves home for college, that's when you have to be certain that they have a goal and they will spend the next 4-5 years fighting to achieve that goal while still shielded from the brutal reality of the real world. If they don't they will have to deal with it when they graduate and move back in with mom and dad.

Bill's kid already has great testing scores. The fact that he wants to improve them is great! That's the spirit that will set him apart from the other students. Nuture that spirit and help him set career goals now...not when he's 1/2 way into a 4 yr degree...a degree that may narrow his carreer path. Don't let the degree choose the career....choose the career and then go after the degree to make it easier to get into the career of his choice. Help him learn what his career choices are and then help him learn what that career may be like....if he turns away...then help him choose another....

I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with other parts. The bottom line is that everyone is different, but I will stand by a couple of pieces of my advice and add a few other thoughts.

In general, I think that engineering school is a mistake for many who "want to be an engineer." It is about the most narrow curriculum out there. While completing the degree does indicate a lot about perseverance and problem solving skills, it doesn't say much about other things like aesthetic, social skills, writing ability, design, etc.

There are very few 4 year degrees that are a "waste of time" unless the student makes them such. Some of the most successful people I know have degrees in "useless" areas such as english and philosophy. What they got in college was breadth of knowledge and critical thinking skills. Engineering and science is not the only way to get that - but some people think that is the case.

If someone has always wanted to be an engineer, and only wants to be an engineer, then by all means, get an undergraduate engineering degree and be happy (or not). But if someone is interesting in "engineering" (and many don't even know what it entails) along with other things (the OP mentioned psych I believe), then I think getting a broader degree in physics or math or chemistry is a better idea. That does not shut them out from becoming an engineer.

The whole "moving back with the parents" isn't reserved for the lowly liberal arts grad. That is a product of the student and the parents. If a student is serious about school, they can excel no matter what degree area they pursue. Believing that science and engineering is required for success is narrow thinking.

The reality of today's world is that a person has to learn how to learn. College is needed to teach that along with critical thinking and analysis. Again, those are not strictly limited to the sciences. Most people will change careers multiple times. Following a certain path will shut down some options but open up others. I am a fan of keeping as many paths available when a person is young.

[david911]

I agree completely with what nostatic wrote above. I'll add a couple of things:

1) If you are interested in science, engineering, computers or economics (or think you might be in the future) be sure to take math classes consistently. It is easy to get out of practice with those skills, and besides, math is fun.

2) Worry most about doing things that interest you, and only secondarily how much money you might make. If you really want to make a lot of money, then you need to learn how to sell, and I don't think that is an academically taught skill.

Cheers,

David

[MotoSook]

The engineering field is very broad. I didn't know that when I was going through school. I wanted to work in Detroit as a mechanical engineer or as an aerospace engineer for Burt Rutan. Those were my goals. But I happened to get a summer internship in a completely unknown to me field. That's where I am now. An engineering degree doesn't really mean on has to work in engineering either. I know some sales guys who have an engineering degree and they do very well for themselves, but their job is less stable than if they were working as engineers. I actually considered Law school after engineering, but the loans were piling up and I had to get to earning. Anyhow, the point is engineering can lead to other things. Engineering school does teach analytical thinking which can be applied to just about any field with a little more more. An engineering degree + an MBA is very marketable for example. An engineering degree + a teaching certificate, and engineering degree + a law degree.....you get the idea.

Of course I'm coming from the engineering perspective as I prefaced my first post.

Todd, I do agree with you about getting a more rounded education. I actually have an interest in humanities, ancient civilization and foreign languages. All of which I was able to study during my engineering years. One should not confined one's studies to just engineering. It makes for a dull individual and can develop an "enginerd" who lacks social skills that can help make the engineer more marketable.

[tabs]

there is a truism, ya cain't learn it outa books, it takes trail and error experience to master something. What a piece of paper is, is a door pass. The institution you get that piece of paper from is merely the quality of the ink and paper. It is up to the indivdual to make the most of that door pass, and nobody can teach you that. Except of course how Mommy and daddy utilize their talents...

I have been observing what peoples occupation are and what their parents occupations are. There is a direct correlation between what the parents do and their children wind up doing. It is as if the children learn how to master some aspect of their parent occupation or avocation which then set them up to follow a similar course. For instance many successfull musicians parents were ameteaur muscians and the child was able to get an early start on mastering musical skills.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by nostatic

The reality of today's world is that a person has to learn how to learn. College is needed to teach that along with critical thinking and analysis. Again, those are not strictly limited to the sciences. Most people will change careers multiple times. Following a certain path will shut down some options but open up others. I am a fan of keeping as many paths available when a person is young.

I have met precious few 18-year-old students who really know what they want to do..."learn how to learn" is an excellent, if somewhat nebulous, approach, but I think the best path for many.

I mean, who really wants to be a pharmacist at 18?

I have assured my kids I will support the following in college: You can get a degree in the Ruins of Pompey, Lit, Psych, etc....but you'll get a second degree in business, finance or econ.

That way they can learn how to think and support themselves.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

That way they can learn how to think and support themselves.

Actually, the above used to be taught in high school....how to apply for and get a job, balance a checkbook, make out a budget, cook & clean...in other words, how to take care of one's self. Today's Government funded high schools teach political indoctrination as much as anything...

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Actually, the above used to be taught in high school....how to apply for and get a job, balance a checkbook, make out a budget, cook & clean...in other words, how to take care of one's self. Today's Government funded high schools teach political indoctrination as much as anything...

Trust me, my kids learned all they need to know to survive, cook and clean etc., from home...I simply want their formal education to include both the practical with the impractical.

[ruf-porsche]

Originally Posted by rick-l

He is in St Louis.
I think he means Merrimac In Town (MIT). <--- A JC
Or Missouri Institute of Technology.
Or (since they reciprocate with MO.) Minnesota Institute of Technology.

I have friends from the "Manilla Institute of Technology". They love referring it as MIT. LOL

[YTNUKLR]

Being an engineer is great and all. I always played with mechanical things and "wanted to be an engineer" when I got to college. I have done the math requirements, and I've added a few CS classes in the study of algorithms. The course of major I took in Neuroscience and Statistics is really not a whole lot easier than Engineering, but it is different, and more interesting to me at the moment. I am not saying you can't take classes outside of engineering, but at least I wanted a broader course of study.

The truth is, I may go back someday. Depending on my job prospects next year, I might go back, and finish the rest of the engineering curriculum to get a BS. Would be probably something like 2 years because I have the math, engineering graphics, CS and Thermodynamics requirements done.

But, to say someone should just do the career when he/she is 18 is not the norm. Most don't seem to know what they want to do, including myself. Whether you are in college or living at home, it is probably going to take a year or two of exploring after high school to narrow it down at least to a point of decision. It took me two years of classes--in 14 different departments on campus--to decide.

Also, you don't invent Ipods without art, and you don't walk into a great company unless you can write and speak like a normal person . My friends that are engineers hate writing papers; I love it. To everyone his own. I just think, if you narrow someone down too early, without really listening to what THEY want, is asking for a lifetime of issues. How many people go into law or med school because their parents wanted them to, or because they think they "should"?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by nostatic

There are very few 4 year degrees that are a "waste of time" unless the student makes them such. Some of the most successful people I know have degrees in "useless" areas such as english and philosophy. What they got in college was breadth of knowledge and critical thinking skills. Engineering and science is not the only way to get that - but some people think that is the case.

If someone has always wanted to be an engineer, and only wants to be an engineer, then by all means, get an undergraduate engineering degree and be happy (or not). But if someone is interesting in "engineering" (and many don't even know what it entails) along with other things (the OP mentioned psych I believe), then I think getting a broader degree in physics or math or chemistry is a better idea. That does not shut them out from becoming an engineer.

I agree with your intent, but a few counterpoints. For the typical grad that goes to college and emerges into the world to start a career, there are a number of worthless degrees. An english degree will cost you the same dollar amount as an accounting degree, but you'll find much greener career pastures with the latter. Obviously there is more to life than money, but emerging from college to a high-demand career with good starting pay is a HUGE bonus.

If you want to be an engineer but don't get an engineering degree, you'll be at a huge disadvantage. Other industries may differ, but that is certainly the case in the local aerospace industry.

[nostatic]

True Matt, but what happens 10 years down the road when one decides that accounting sucks?

These days it is rare for a person to keep one career path for their entire life. Each degree has pluses and minuses. I'm just saying that there is more than one way to a goal, and that more importantly, goals can change over time.

And Wayne, CalTech would argue the opposite using the same facts that you cite with a spin (ie smaller, more personal, more selective). At at CalTech the grad and undergrad "vibes" are very different, so it is difficult to make blanket statements beyond sheer size/numbers.

[serge944]

I merely went to UC Davis for my BSME - now I'm building steel bridges in China.

My success so far can be narrowed down to two things: 1. The social skills I learned working as a bouncer at a bar for 1 year and 2. The welding/steel fabrication skills I learned in Thom's back yard.

Ultimately, the operative tenet of education is to teach yourself how to think.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by nostatic

True Matt, but what happens 10 years down the road when one decides that accounting sucks?

Well, at least you had a good job for the first 10 years.

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Without going into details, I compared the two schools side-by-side when deciding where to go as a graduate student. It's been 15 years since I looked this info up, but I believe at the time MIT had about $245 in annual research funding from government and private business. 2nd place behind them was Stanford, with something like $20 million or so. Caltech was somewhere behind Stanford. The opportunities clearly follow the money trail when it comes to research. As mentioned previously, my grad school tuition was paid for with private research grants (from AMP corporation).

-Wayne

My school was #3 in research spending. That's pretty much where the similarity ends.