Audiophiles: Did You Get Dupped Into the CD Craze?

[ramonesfreak]

oh and BOB, where did you get that rack holding the Teac R2R? I do multitrack recording with 4 and 8 track machines as well as the R2R when its working and that rack setup is just prefect! I must have one of those

[GO DAWG GO]

srandallf,

You have a nice system..do your neighbors like you living in a condo next to them?

For the recording equipment,

I made it..Thanks! Actually the bottom rack was purchased and modified. I did the steel work and bracket fabrication and the overall design. The Mackey board was purchased from Guitar Center and the reel to reel (ebay) The machine is actually A-3340. I realized I needed a better machine to record my son and have realized they sound really good too. I bought some tape from a guy on ebay and some of it was professionally prerecorded with some wonderful piano concertos live from the Hollywood Bowl in the 1980s. Very nice dinner music when the in laws come over.

I'm happy with the system although I'm going to remove the Denon cassette and disk burner and a few other things from my main rack. I'm still developing the system and what I want.

I will look into a better quality CD player because I have so many CD's.

Thanks for the compliment

Bob

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by K. Roman

Sniper, You just like to take the minority opinion. That's why I like you.

It's true. CD's are recorded to sound "loud", not to sound good.

Do a google- this is a well known issue.

[imcarthur]

Originally Posted by 89911

Along with expensive red wines, sometimes its hard to take the objectivity out of the picture.

Exactly. Someone with 3000 + LPs wants to hear that vinyl is better & so they do. And the same for digital. There is no absolute better. It is in the ear of the listener. The live event is real & no recording is capable of reproducing it. At best it is a pale imitation. Of course, the other side of the coin is that some recordings can't be meaningfully reproduced in a live environment either. But it is all recorded digitally now. And if you have ever sat through a mixing & a mastering session, you would be surprised at the tinkering that is done to the signal with the array of digital & analogue compression devices & software.

And for the record, I don't own a really decent system anymore. I maxxed out as an audiophile in the late 80s. I am either burnt out or spoiled. Since I play with & sell some of the best of the best on a regular basis, when I get home I listen on my computer system. Wavs though, never MP3s. Pitiful, I know.

Ian

[ramonesfreak]

wow. nice skills Bob!!

i meant i have the teac 3340, but not the "A" model

as for the neighbors, they have left me a few notes

listening space a few years back

[VINMAN]

Wow, cant believe you still have a Discwasher kit. I havent seen one of those in years!

Originally Posted by GO DAWG GO

.

[cairns]

In my opinion, sometimes vinyl wins sometimes it loses.

I own an old TD124 MkII (Thorens), a new Clearaudio Ambient (with Sumiko Blackbird), a VIP record cleaning machine and a Shanling SCDT200 as input devices and never gave up on vinyl (almost 1000 albums I think).

When vinyl wins:

Tracy Nelson/Tracy Nelson- "Down So Low" could never sound as real on a CD IMO- I don't even think it's available on CD.

Beach Boys/Pet Sounds- CDs just can't seem to equal the lush, warm harmonies of the album.

Any early Rolling Stones- whoever mixed them for CDs must have been deaf.

When Vinyl loses:

Flim & the BBs/Tricycle- digitially recorded to a very high standard (and probably not available on vinyl) the album blends both warmth and an incredible dynamic range I don't think any album could match.

Virtually any Telarc CD- But try Aaron Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man". again dynamic range wins.

Some (but not all) of the Master Recording CDs (mixed at half speed). Jethro Tull's "Stand Up" is better on CD than vinyl. But they couldn't reproduce the album cover that "stands up" when you open it.

BTW my CD/SACD player can play through tubes. My amplifier (an MC602) is solid state. And these are just my opinions based on my ear listening through my equipment.

[GO DAWG GO]

srandallf,

I like that Guards red TV. It would look nice on my guards red roll away next to my guards red 930..

Ha!

Anyway- what happened to your Teac? theres a guy on ebay that specializes in Teac machines and has every part you would need to fix it. He can fix it. I bought belts and maintenance info from him.. Nice guy and on the up&up!

The Teacman....

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/The-Teac-Place__W0QQ_armrsZ1

[TerryH]

Wow! Dawg, that is some nice stuff.

I grew up with vinyl, own a few hundred platters still, but haven't played them since my table broke 10 years ago. Vinyl's biggest drawback is it's a loss type medium. Material and information is removed every time it's played. Technically, vinyl is only 100% the very first time it is played.

I think the electronics make up most of the sounds. "Warm" vinyl and "bright" CD's seem a logical comparison, but put vinyl though some Klipsch horns and suddenly that's bright too.

Besides, bright is not necessarily a bad term. If it's warm, it could be muddy. If it's clarity you're seeking, than a little bright is right.

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Wow, cant believe you still have a Discwasher kit. I havent seen one of those in years!

With the original box. Make me an offer! lol

[GO DAWG GO]

Cairns,

lets be fair, Aaron Copeland has been dead for many years.. I think? He was old when I was a kid in the 60's and all of his pieces were recorded on magnetic tape. I.e. Appalachian Spring... I have many of his CDs and my father probably has all of his vinyl. They do have a great sound quality.

Have you ever played a CD and Vinyl at the same time to compare? I have a new Steely Dan "Gaucho" on vinyl and the CD I bought years ago. Listen to the song "My Rival" Vinyl will take it hand down..IMHO!

I have a Robin Trower album in vinyl and CD. The CD sounds better?. But frankly the CD sucks too. I think it is a precisely because of a poor quality recording and pressing though. I still believe all thing being equal..I will go with the vinyl!

Have you ever purchased a a very poor quality recording on CD/Vinyl. You wonder how it got as far as it did, without a quality backlash!

Bob

[cairns]

Dawg,
The recording I have for Aaron is on Telarc and was digitally recorded. I forget which orchestra but can look it up. I have an old (Capitol I think) album of the same (but different orchestra) which doesn't sound near as nice.

I have some pretty bad CDs- bargain basement buys where I took a chance. But by far the worst is a Marvin Gaye greatest hits I got at Price Club. Absolutely unbearable!!

I think you have to look at individual recordings and particular equipment and not just say one is superior to the other.

I love the "art" of vinyl- the whole idea that a medium that old can sound that fantastic and that you go through this process to play the record- just something about it. I also like the album covers themselves- I recently bought a Rolling Stones Satanic Majesties Request mint for $50- just to have the album cover in pristine condition (I never really thought much of the music itself). Then there is a huge amount of material you can get on albums that never made it to CDs. I can spend hours in used record stores.....

[GO DAWG GO]

cairns,

Last year before I was reintroduced to vinyl, I was in Seattle on biz and over a weekend, I stopped at a local thrift store because I really didn't have much to do. I noticed in the back of the store was some 5000+ vinyl records. I looked through them and it appeared that there was popular rock, jazz, classical and country vinyl records priced for 25 cents. I thought, wow if these were only CD's. I pulled some from there jackets and they were pristine! Too Bad I didn't appreciate them at the time. I would have bought 100s and sent them back home to L.A. I went to a couple of local thrift shops in my area and found a few good ones for a buck a piece. Some unopened after all these years. The workers at the stores have mentioned that vinyl doesn't last long anymore because they are getting popular.

You are absolutely right about another contemporary conductor recording Copeland on a digital recording. I guess I had a serious brain F-rt. makes sense! Recording Wagner when Wagner was around would have been difficult, especially Mozart 200 years ago...what was I thinking..Ha!

Forgive me...

Bob

[ramonesfreak]

Originally Posted by GO DAWG GO

srandallf,

I like that Guards red TV. It would look nice on my guards red roll away next to my guards red 930..

Ha!

Anyway- what happened to your Teac? theres a guy on ebay that specializes in Teac machines and has every part you would need to fix it. He can fix it. I bought belts and maintenance info from him.. Nice guy and on the up&up!

The Teacman....

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/The-Teac-Place__W0QQ_armrsZ1

Not sure what happened...while playing one day it just broke and one of the spindles bent and the recording level is not correct. when i get some spare change i will send it to the Teac authorized repair center in New Jersey for a full rehabilitation back to as-new spec.


TV is actually more like orange. I have a mustard colored one too. now with the new digital broadcast, my vintage tv collection has been rendered to performing as light boxes

[ramonesfreak]

i still have my Discwasher Kit too....but i dont have the static gun unfortunately. been using my brush every day since i was 14 and it looks like new

[K. Roman]

It's not just CDs, it's all music. Compression is used to make everything the same level whether it's on CD or Vinyl. Most of the music that use this technique is club music or already loud rock music. People want a consistent level, unlike a lot of more spatial songs. Ask Gogar, he knows what's up.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

It's true. CD's are recorded to sound "loud", not to sound good.

Do a google- this is a well known issue.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

....

Cheap analogue was cheap analogue. Cheap digital is cheap digital. A properly selected system in either format can be stunning.

Ian

Bingo.

The other fly in the ointment is that two separate issues are often conflated - and the evidence of that is posted numerous times above.

There are two sources of "effed-up" low-fi sound:

1. the way it was originally recorded/mastered/pressed, etc. for delivery to the consumer

and...

2. the equipment used by said consumer to retrieve the info on whatever recording medium is involved, and then turn that into pressure waves in the air for the ear to hear.

Be careful not to confuse the two and you will hear better sound and save a lot of money...

[RWebb]

for good not too many $$ CD players, I will add to the above:

a used Cal Audio (if you can find one - co. ois out of biz, too bad)
and high end Sony ES stuff - not sure if still made as I have been using my Cal Audio for many years.

I also agree re tubes - the "cheap" way to get a "mellower" sound (I do not claim it is more "accurate," only that it sounds real good") is to get a quality tube pre-amp and a transistor amp.

I have Sonic Frontiers - good quality rel to cost.

There are other brands at other price points...

And to follow up on the blast from the past Phase Linear post, I have a later design amp from the same genius, Bob Carver -- a transistor amp by Sunfire.

It all "motorvates" the air by way of a pair of Magneplanar speakers - which I finally decided should replace my Vandersteens after having both side by side for 2 years - yeh, it was that hard to decide.

This system was built up with 2 ideas in mind:
1. Stay well clear of the "bleeding edge."
2. It is all about compressing air into waves. After that, it is up to the basal window, the FFT decoder in the basilar membrane and all their buddies...

[89911]

Originally Posted by GO DAWG GO

899,

You have convinced me. Yes 100 year old technology is being improved upon. The technology in contemporary turntables is vastly different than the early science. Music and sound is a vibrato of frequencies arranged in order to provide a acoustic auditory sensation/ stimulus. The human ear and its inter components are very analog. The inner ear drum resonates to the frequencies like a diaphragm in a microphone and is a very complex transducer sending information to the brain.

Sound/Music is Analog...Not digital. There is really no way to augment the amplitude without distorting the sine wave to an extent. Its no accident that digital sound is close to analog reproduction but truly cant get there because of its composition and structure..close but no cigar!

Contemporary tone arms and cartridges styli can trace a grove much more accurately with various geometrical polished tips, some designed for great detail and others for less detriment to the vinyl itself. The downstream cartridge is much more sensitive with low and high mass moving coil inductance and better separation from motor hum and other extraneous noise that gets thrown in the mix causing very subliminal irritation.

I can see your face value lack of acceptance for a room full on equipment that looks like the crew station on the space shuttle., but to my madness is evolving as I go like I did when I was sorting out my 930/Porsches. Sometimes you can buy 3 different type of turbochargers before you fit the one that is harmonious to the rest of you system and works at its highest efficiency level.

In the mean time my son has become (in my opinion) a fantastic guitarist for just turning 14. I decided to record he and I jamming together and burn a disk of buffer music for my brothers talk radio show in Sacramento.

Good arguement for, I must agree. I guess some of my issues is that I really don't get nostalgic for older music, which is what vinyl mostly represents. The newer music made may not transpire to vinyl as well, since gone are the days of bands like the Allman and Doobie brothers 12 piece bands that have a lot going on. Hip Hop on vinyl? That would make it even worse in my opinion.

[pwd72s]

Evidently, discwashers still available...I'm still using my 1970's discwasher...I bought the big jug of fluid back then.

http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=discwasher+d4%2B+record+cleaning+system&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=9ynmSZDOE5P6tAOT0IXgAQ&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title