Audiophiles: Did You Get Dupped Into the CD Craze?
 

Back in the early 1980's, when the Compact Disk (CD) was marketed, Did you get sucked into believing that CD's were far superior in sound quality than the vinyl records? I did! No noise, no skipping, doesnt wear out. These attributes are obviously false. Recently, I purchased some high end audio equipment and built a new system to play some of my old CD's. My new system is comprised of Bob Carver designed Phase Linear 4000 preamp with a Phase linear 700b power amp that controls low frequencies and a 400 series for powering my mids and highs.. My speakers are older JBL components rebuilt to new specs and the subs and middle channel speakers are Altec Voice of the theater original folded horns.
Where I am going with this is, I didn't like the sterile digital sound that the CDs produced. I complained to a few audio buffs I know and they recommended vinyl records. I was certainly surprised at the recommendation.

I bought an older Micro Seiki DDX 1000 turntable with twin Black widow tonearms from Audiogon (A audiophile website) and "wow" what a difference. I have sound quality from the old vinyl that sounds accurate, real and detailed like you could never get from a CD. You would think Robin Trower was playing in my living room.

So, Did you know that the sound quality of vinyl is far superior to CDs?
I know that CD's are more versatile for the car, boat, Walkman etc. But when you desire to listen to Bach to Steely Dan and have it sound like they are performing in front of you, the vinyl is unquestionably warmer and wins hands down.

Vinyl is coming back, check out your local Best Buy. They are now carrying vinyl records! I attached a picture of a Micro Seiki DDX-1000. Very Cool!

Bob

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239739798.jpg

Some of my vinyl records sounded great, but most of my "collection" was pop-click-scratch infested. So CDs were, in fact, an audio upgrade for me back then, plus the convenience was great. Hard to play a vinyl in the car.

I can certainly believe that a high-quality vinyl pressing, well cared for and played on top-quality equipment, would sound terrific today. Especially when most ears have become used to compressed iPod files.

What is really strange is the old tube stuff sounded much more better then the digital !!
A LOT more better

I definately prefer vinyl over CDs.
I have about 600 albums. Still listen to them all the time.

I love vinyl, I just don't use it as often because of Serato. You play mp3's from your laptop through coded vinyl, it's a DJ platform. I have about 6000 records, and have hired (interns) to record them and create mp3's. Well, actually they create .WAV then convert them

While everybody likes to talk about vinyl coming back, it will never be more than a small blip. People are laying down their plastic for MORE vinyl & MORE vinyl goodies – turntables, cartridges, phono preamps etc but it is far, far from the stampede that some sources make it out to be. Stores deserted vinyl for many years & many have a token representation back again.

The biggest problem with digital playback, is that the vast majority of consumers are happy to accept it as is. I have heard many of the best quality CD-based systems that money can buy & it is far better than you think. Have you heard a good $2K CD player? Most people have not & certainly wouldn’t buy it because it isn’t that much better than a $99 one, right?

Cheap analogue was cheap analogue. Cheap digital is cheap digital. A properly selected system in either format can be stunning.

Ian

Guys,

What I have found interesting is the pops and surface particulate noise is really negligible and attenuated with a good quality stylus and cartridge. I have been buying new pressings of older records and wow they sound good..almost unbelievable.

What cartridges are you using?????

I have Grado Prestige "Green" on one arm and a Shure V15 type 5 on the other. Nothing real high dollar because both arms are very low mass and dont require it.

Bob

I bought a turntable last year and have been re-enjoying all of my old vinyl ever since. I have even bought some newer stuff (Smashing Pumpkins, Weezer, etc) on vinyl and it sounds great, too.

Ian,

I have been told that CDs are consistant in there playback quality and the only real difference was the digital preamplifier. Most will say they all sound the same...???

I would be very interested in a audiophile CD player if one exists. I dont need all the bells and whistles though. What would you recommend that is appreciably better in tone, warmth, detail and signal to noise?

Thanks

Bob

Well, vinyl wasn't too easy to play in the car, so I bought tapes. Man, when CD's came out, that solved a lot of problems. Ever notice how you don't see any tapes all strung out along the road any more? A few of them were mine. :p

I remember JC Whitney selling an underdash turntable. One one my buddies bought one. What piece of crap. Of course you couldnt play it with the car moving. :D

not to derail too much, but SACD and HDCD... still not as "warm" as vinyl, but even on a low end SACD machine, it sounds much better than a redbook CD.

Explain to me how a digital recording (the newer stuff) is going to sound better on vinyl? If it was recorded on "cold" digital media how will a D/A converter "warm" it up? Not arguing, just genuinely curious.

I understand how the older stuff sounds better, it was recorded on analog tape, and made the transition well.

I remember listening to "Brothers In Arms" on an older Carver tube amp at the time, and through a set of Carver Amazing loudspeakers in an acousticaly dead room. For a "cold" digital recording , on a "cold" cd, the beginning of "Your Latest Trick" sounded amazing to me!

If you want that warm sound, run a tube preamp with your CD's.

If you want the hiss and scratch and pop... well.. keep using vinyl.

I find that you can't replace CD's when listening to early 90's hip hop and R&B.. which is what I really love to listen to when I want to hear the speakers work their magic. The late 80's early 90's R&B had a real pure sound to it, with the bass and electronic keyboards... I'm talking stuff like Janet Jackson & what not.


I like period correct music for the system. IE 1994 preamp and speakers go with 1994 music.

I got duped into cassette tapes.:rolleyes:

I really do like my old LPs, but with a 2 YO I leave them stored away.

I don't think I have high performance ears. My cd-playing pawnshop stereo would make the stuff I had in my 20's sound like the drive-up window at a fast food joint.
Jim

I really love cassettes. They sound great as long as you recorded on them once or so. I've also been recording my cassettes to mp3. What is funny is that the tape doesn't play exactly on time and you can really notice it when played against the same track that was recorded on cd. If you have any recording equipment for the computer, like Protools, you see the wave form and it is usually longer on cassette but with the same pitch!

im a vinyl collector. at 37, i have been buying vinyl weekly since i was 13. i will never stop for many reasons.. the sound, i love turntables, the artwork, the deals, the thrill of the hunt etc...

but, i have just as many CD's and a nice Rega CD player to play em on. the rest of my system is top quality and thats when you notice how good, or how bad, the CD was made. CD's have their place in my library. I still buy them....recently picked up the new Bob Dylan Tell Tale Signs and I am enjoying the fantastic sound quality. I have many CD's that sound way better than vinyl and many that sound like garbage

Same for vinyl. some are great and some are awful, especially with the new 180 gram records. The new Dark Side of the Moon 30th anniv. 180 gram is stunning, as is Radiohead OK computer, all the Stooges releases...some, not so nice...and alot of manufacturing defects

"Digital" = fuel injection.

Vinyl, tapes, etc. = Carbs.

One is more efficient and technically better. One is just a lot more enjoyable.

Having said that, a really great digital setup can be every bit (pun intended) as a nice vinyl setup. The only thing lacking is nostalgia.

I play all three...but only when Cindy is out of the house. She claims the stereo brings on her migrane attacks. Should just trash all the sound equipment and buy her a large screen TV, so she can watch garbage to her heart's content...

I have the ipod in the Carrera, the ipod and the CD's for the living room, and when I want to really unwind, relax, and make an event out of the music and take the time to listen, Vinyl. There is no comparison. Vinyl is more natural, real, and warm.
CD's, even played through a good setup (good, not outrageous, all digital) sound ok, but they are always a little "bright";
the ipod set to shuffle works great when I need background music during a project, either indoor or outdoor and I don't want to keep changing discs. (single disc player, no changers anymore.)

As for the ipod in the Carrera, there is no way to get decent hi fi in that noisemaker, so it's nice to assemble a couple of playlists for the road depending on my mood and the weather, and crank up the Golden Earring, or whatever.

for the money you cant beat a Rega CD player

i have a Planet 2000...9 years old now
http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/rega/cd-players/planet-2000/PRD_125473_1586crx.aspx

they have newer models as well.

what i would consider on the entry level of true audiophile CD playback. As good as ill ever need. Sounds amazing

the thing with audiophile gear is, your weakest link destroys the whole chain. you really have to match the gear right...which is part of the fun

No. There are huge differences in playback quality. When CD was introduced, it was a new game for recording engineers, mixers & masterers. It took a while for everybody to learn how to use it. At the same time our understanding of the hardware – both recording & playback - has improved significantly. The importance of DACS. The key role of clocking. Jitter. Turntables & their flaws were well known & there has been miniscule development in vinyl reproduction over the last decade. But digital playback has improved dramatically. Of course, the fly in the ointment is that recordings – whether stamped on vinyl or acrylic bits – are still subject to the demands of the record company. And they want compressed dynamics to win the iPod shuffle (used to be the radio dial driveby).

There are numerous makes & models. Look for simple single play CD players. The better ones kick in above $500. At $1500 you break into players that use very good DACs, good power supplies etc etc. I am hopelessly biased, but give our Cambridge Audio 840C a listen if you see one around.

The other possibility is look for external add on DACS. You keep your CD player & digital out to an external self powered DAC. Wadia makes a good one. We have a Cambridge (DacMagic) that we can’t keep in stock – and I can’t even get a sample. You can also use these with your computer with amazing result since they have USB in.

And speaking of Dire Straights . . . listen to Private Investigations. On vinyl or CD, that recording had an upper midrange sharpness. That’s the way it was mixed. On a very good digital system this song takes your breath away. Vinyl always added noise but in digital, the background is silent. With the footsteps . . . wow . . .

Ian

I have preferred vinyl for over 30 years. My collection numbers about 4,000 albums. All tube except for class A amps. Oracle table.
I have never heard a CD sound anything like vinyl- except for some of the better mixed SACD's. If you think cd sound better, and vinyl only has clicks- good for you.
In my humble opinion you are wrong, but we all hear things differently. I, for instance, can not hear the difference in most cables, especially digital cables, but some say they can.
Here is my test. I can take a vinyl record, pick a complex piece- and play it over and over again- loud. With vinyl I can play the same cut dozens of times and it still engages me. With a Cd- and yes I have heard many of the high end transports, I have a tube DAC and preamp- I lose interest in the cut by about the 2nd or 3rd play. It starts to sound raspy- and there is an irritating upper edge. I then turn it down.
But, that is just me.
If you have never heard a good vinyl setup- do yourself a favor and go listen.
Gary

I have a Theta Data with a DS Pro which sounds great, Dad runs a Meridian which is real good and I also have a tweaked Sony ES single transport which sounds real nice. No clicks and pops but neither the depth of vinyl (perhaps due to the mix). Try some of the JVC high end cd recordings...

I am not going to tell what sounds better but I encourage you to go find an ol juke box in good working order, play it, you will see what i mean. The sound is real, not shallow

The problem with CDs is how they're recorded. This is a well known issue.

A properly recorded CD sounds a lot better than a record does.

Not exactly. It is how it is mastered for the CD. Same with vinyl. You need to master the CD or Vinyl to accompany the medium.

Sniper, You just like to take the minority opinion. :D That's why I like you.

:eek:
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I think that one of the reasons why vinyl is making a bit of a comeback is not just sound or nostalgia, but the ritual of it all. With a CD you just pop in the disc, select your track and press play. With vinyl LPs you have a large disc that you have to be very careful with that you don’t scratch, you place it on the turn table and put the needle on the track that you want to listen to. When that side is done you have to flip it over to listen to the other side. While your listening your likely to be relaxing, maybe with some friends or a drink. You likely enjoy looking at the artwork on the sleeve which is much larger than a CD. To me this is a little like driving an old Porsche, if we just wanted to get in and drive then we would all buy a Honda and be done with it. But we don’t, so we put up with all kinds of things that the majority of drivers wouldn’t. We want our driving experience to be a little more in depth just like I think those who prefer vinyl do. Now in my opinion CD’s are the better format because of the consistency in playback, and its ability to be faithful reproduction of the music (however harsh it may sound). Of course the music on a CD is only as good as the master tapes and how well it’s mastered to disc and so on. For myself I use a solid state preamp, and tube power amp to get back a little bit of that warmth that I miss with a CD. To me it rounds the edges just enough to let me relax while I listen but not get frustrated with the cracks and pops of vinyl. Now don’t get me wrong, I do think that vinyl gives certain warmth to a piece of music that a CD can’t match, but I’m too lazy to lug vinyl around. Also stereo system is only as good as it weakest link. Whether you have vinyl or CD it will sound like a$$ with junk monitors

At the Rocky Mountain show in Denver in Oct, we had the opportunity to do an honest comparison. We co/op'd Audio Unlimited's room. We supplied a pair of our Grande Utopia EM speaker. Boulder brought in their best mono blocks, pre & source & cd player. Musical Surrounding's Garth brought in & setup the Clear Audio $150K turntable. Cabling was some high end brand & conditioning was Shunyata. A truly high end analogue & CD system at a scary, scary price. We had one piece of music on both LP & CD. Gary Karr's double bass piece Adagio in G minor by Albinoni (extremely good btw).

We had a roomful of industry guys & we all heard the same thing. CD - better bass (by far), better resolution, better top extension & better focus. TT - better midrange liquidity - almost smeared but deliciously so.

Ian

I Liked the Video and I'm Not Quite That Anal!
 

Fellas,

Lets see your systems!....... I didnt realize Pellican had some audio gurus.

I didnt expect this thread to go where it has obviously taken us. There are some real Pellicanite audiophiles here. I would consider myself kind of stuck in the late 70's and 80's when it comes to preamps amd poweramps. I have always like Phase Linear for its innate horse power, clarity and warmth. My main amp is the 700B is one Horse Power ~750 watts. My second is 400 watts with another 400 mono blocks amplifying my center section.
I thought you guys might enjoy my some of the pictures of my equipment as I built it. The rack, recording center and the integration of JBL, Altec Lansing and Eminense speakers which are very capable of shearing the house off its foundation.

Anyway here are some pictures that are fairly recent of my system and the lacquer black rack I built in my back yard.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239767483.jpg

The Micro Seiki DDX 1000 with Infinity Black Widow arms....


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239767551.jpg

My main rack with signal processors and Phase Linear amps. It really looks nice. I fabbed, built and finished it in Black metal speck (Smaller than flake) enamel (Auto paint)


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239767618.jpg

Altec Lancing Voice of the theatre folded horn with JBL 2405 bullet tweeters, Mid range horn and Kenwood monoblock amps

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239767652.jpg

Eminence and JBL drivers


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239767767.jpg


Teac 4 channel Reel to reel for recording my son playing the Dean Dime in the background. BTW, I play drums. We have a good time.

Most vinyl has a much better sound. SACD is very close to it. The first time I heard SACD it brought back the excitement of listening to music again. Back to the warmth of the vinyl album. Of course listening to it on McIntosh tube equipment that is just about as old as I am helps a lot. I have two MC-30's and a C-20 preamp. This is one of my amplifiers.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239771102.jpg

OK audio snobs, I'll throw my $.02 in.:). Maybe CD's weren't the answer. Personally, I don't have the time or devotion to rig up a complete room with audio gear and listen in silence. But do you really think technology that is a 100 years old can't be improved upon? And why is there a correlation between spending astronomical amounts of money (tube amps, audiophile turntables) to being able to really "listen" to music on vinyl. Along with expensive red wines, sometimes its hard to take the objectivity out of the picture.

Tubes and vinyl just go together.

899,

You have convinced me. Yes 100 year old technology is being improved upon. The technology in contemporary turntables is vastly different than the early science. Music and sound is a vibrato of frequencies arranged in order to provide a acoustic auditory sensation/ stimulus. The human ear and its inter components are very analog. The inner ear drum resonates to the frequencies like a diaphragm in a microphone and is a very complex transducer sending information to the brain.

Sound/Music is Analog...Not digital. There is really no way to augment the amplitude without distorting the sine wave to an extent. Its no accident that digital sound is close to analog reproduction but truly cant get there because of its composition and structure..close but no cigar!:(

Contemporary tone arms and cartridges styli can trace a grove much more accurately with various geometrical polished tips, some designed for great detail and others for less detriment to the vinyl itself. The downstream cartridge is much more sensitive with low and high mass moving coil inductance and better separation from motor hum and other extraneous noise that gets thrown in the mix causing very subliminal irritation.

I can see your face value lack of acceptance for a room full on equipment that looks like the crew station on the space shuttle., but to my madness is evolving as I go like I did when I was sorting out my 930/Porsches. Sometimes you can buy 3 different type of turbochargers before you fit the one that is harmonious to the rest of you system and works at its highest efficiency level.

In the mean time my son has become (in my opinion) a fantastic guitarist for just turning 14. I decided to record he and I jamming together and burn a disk of buffer music for my brothers talk radio show in Sacramento.

Mike,

How old is your MC-30s. Those are very nice, I mean VERY nice! 1965ish?????? I love the sound of McIntosh. I also like the headroom in superamps like the 700B at a reasonable cost...

By the way, what is your address?:D

Bob

hey Bob ive got the same Teac 3340 reel to reel, except that i have the first generation one. im very upset as mine just broke...i love that thing. you ever want to sell yours let me know

no pictures of my system while at work, but maybe ill take some later.

my main system is small and humble and just right for a 650 sq ft condo

1) Bryston B-60 integrated
2) Rega Planet 2000 CD
3) Harman Hardon Rabco ST-7 linear tracking TT (1977)
4) B&W CDM1se speakers, bi-wired with prism cables
5) Rotel 9708x phono stage
6) Harman Kardon T-403 tuner (mid-70's)