Question for the gun guys...

[Dottore]

Are there states in the US where someone who is not a US citizen or permanent resident etc. is able to legally purchase a firearm over the counter??

Which states are the slackest on these requirements?

Could, for example, a tourist go into a gun shop and purchase a firearm, no questions asked?

My interest here is purely academic (I hasten to add).

[Rot 911]

I don't know how as all the states do a criminal background check which requires a social security number. The difference between the states is how long the check takes. Here in Missouri they do it over the phone. From the time I pick out the gun to out the door is all of 10 minutes.

[Rick Lee]

I believe you have to have at least a green card to buy a gun legally in a store. That's a matter of federal, not state, law. Plenty of states allow private party sales between residents of that state. And most folks only want to see your in-state driver's license in a private party sale, which you could have and not have a green card. So it's not too hard to get around if you don't care about complying with the law. Of course, get caught breaking any gun law and you're usually looking at mandatory minimums for jail. And real criminals aren't gonna submit to background checks or filling out forms anyway. I've bought lots of guns in parking lots and gun shows and have sold several to cops that way. I'll probably sell a gun to a cop next week in a parking lot.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

I don't know how as all the states do a criminal background check which requires a social security number. The difference between the states is how long the check takes. Here in Missouri they do it over the phone. From the time I pick out the gun to out the door is all of 10 minutes.

All states are now on the NICS system, which is run by the feds. That's what they use your soc. sec. # for. Sure sucks to have a common name for that stuff.

[Dottore]

So taking my example of say, a German tourist in the US who wants to buy a firearm legally...

Could he do this somewhere? Or would he always require some kind of US id/drivers license etc.

[legion]

In your example, the tourist can't do it legally without a green card, in which case he probably isn't a tourist.

He will have to show some ID (some states require a driver's license, some require a specific firearm's ID card). Assuming he filled out the form properly, he would be denied on the spot. Barring that, the NICS check should come back as denied.

[Rick Lee]

No chance a foreign tourist could buy a gun anywhere in the US legally. It wouldn't be hard to do, but it would definitely not be legal.

[Dottore]

Thanks. That's very helpful.

And how about the secondary market. Private sales. Is the seller always "legally" required to take down US ID from the buyer? Are such private sales registered/notified with/to some authority?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Thanks. That's very helpful.

And how about the secondary market. Private sales. Is the seller always "legally" required to take down US ID from the buyer? Are such private sales registered/notified with/to some authority?

Typically, the states with the strictest gun laws and most restrictions have the highest gun crime rates. So, in Wash. DC, NJ, NY, MD, IL, those kinds of states, I don't think you can do any kind of private party sale without going through an FFL (federal firearms license), where they record the sale and run the background check on the buyer and maybe even have some silly waiting period. However, the states with the loose gun laws like TX, FL, VA, AZ, NV, MT, WY, ID, etc. let anyone who's a resident sell to anyone who's a resident. I have bought and sold plenty of guns by meeting in the local Home Depot parking lot or in front of a gun show. No paper work needed. Once in a while sellers want a photocopy of a buyer's driver's license, but it's not required. It's just a CYA thing. In AZ a lot of for sale ads state they want to see an AZ driver's license and a CCW permit. The CCW permit proves you've been fingerprinted and have been run through the NICS, which is about as safe as it gets. When I buy in a store in AZ, my CCW gets me out of having to submit to the NICS check again. I can take the gun home in about five min., which is how long it takes me to fill out the paperwork.

[Mr_Wizard]

Quote de Kurt V

I don't know how as all the states do a criminal background check which requires a social security number. The difference between the states is how long the check takes. Here in Missouri they do it over the phone. From the time I pick out the gun to out the door is all of 10 minutes.

All states are now on the NICS system, which is run by the feds. That's what they use your soc. sec. # for. Sure sucks to have a common name for that stuff.

+1 on that. Took bout 30 mins when I purchased my M4 last month. Just gave me time to peruse the store for my next purchase.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

However, the states with the loose gun laws like TX, FL, VA, AZ, NV, MT, WY, ID, etc. let anyone who's a resident sell to anyone who's a resident. I have bought and sold plenty of guns by meeting in the local Home Depot parking lot or in front of a gun show. No paper work needed. Once in a while sellers want a photocopy of a buyer's driver's license, but it's not required. It's just a CYA thing.

So if I understand this correctly, in those states (above) , my German tourist might not even be asked to produce any ID for the seller (in a private sale).

In other words the seller is not required to lodge a copy of the buyers ID with any relevant authority.

Is that about right?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Dottore

So if I understand this correctly, in those states (above) , my German tourist might not even be asked to produce any ID for the seller (in a private sale).

In other words the seller is not required to lodge a copy of the buyers ID with any relevant authority.

Is that about right?

That's a matter of state law, so I don't know it beyond the states where I've lived and dealt guns. However, your German tourist is not gonna find a lot of folks willing to sell to him unless he's pretty convincing about being an American, even if they don't bother to ask for ID. Aside from really going underground, where is he gonna find a deal? The local gun BBS in AZ is much like Pelican when it comes to classifieds. Someone with a post count of one or two is probably gonna get some extra scrutiny and lots of members vouch for each other. Craigslist and eBay don't allow gun ads. Backpage does, but rest assured, there are plenty of cops and feds monitoring that for shady deals and stolen guns. Again, it's pretty easy to buy a gun, but not legally if you're not totally on the up and up. And penalties for gun crimes tend to be pretty severe here.

[Dottore]

OK. Thanks Rick.

[nostatic]

A SSN is *not* required for background check and purchase. I have never supplied mine. It is stated as optional on the DROS form, and will speed things up if you have a common name.

afaik in CA you must have a CA license or ID with accompanying proof of residence that matches the address on the ID. You cannot buy a firearm in CA using an ID from another state or country.

[jriera]

A non-US citizen can buy a gun legally in the US (I know, I have done it before I was a USA citizen) with the purpose of exporting it back to the home country.

Some paperwork and the Consulate/Embassy is involved, contact the Consulate and/or the local ATF

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Are there states in the US where someone who is not a US citizen or permanent resident etc. is able to legally purchase a firearm over the counter??

Which states are the slackest on these requirements?

Could, for example, a tourist go into a gun shop and purchase a firearm, no questions asked?

My interest here is purely academic (I hasten to add).

It used to be that way, not sure if it is anymore.

(see post above mine)

[Aerkuld]

I was reading this earlier and I think the answers were basically on the right track as I understand things. I know that in Georgia at least (and probably everywhere?) a foreigner can legally buy a firearm without being a green card holder if they have a valid hunting license, can demonstrate that they are in the country legally, and if they have proof of being in the USA for a certain period of time - I don't recall but I think its three months. Of course there is nothing to stop them buying one in a face-to-face transaction but, as others have said, a lot of people are very cautious when selling and probably wouldn't sell to someone they didn't know.
Legal gun sales are far more tightly controlled than the media and anti-gun folk would have you believe.

[Rick Lee]

I'm probably selling a gun to a local cop next week and, if he's not in uniform, I'll ask to see his badge and driver's license. I did sell to a DC cop a few years ago at a gun show in VA. I'm not sure it was 100% legal, as we were not residents of the same state. But he showed me his badge and ID and it was obviously not a sting. I was approached by some Russian guys at a gun show a few years ago, who I am sure were not legal to buy. I chatted with them a bit, but they decided to go elsewhere. There's no requirement to show ID when doing private party sales. But beware if a buyer says he's from out of state. He's either a complete idiot or an undercover ATF agent trying to sting you. Happens at every gun show in Phoenix.

[Aerkuld]

Personally I don't think I'd want to buy a gun FTF unless it was from someone I knew reasonably well or at least had a copy of some documentation showing who they are, where they live, etc. You never know what you might be getting into.

[David]

Virginia, gun show, parking lot.