Anacdotal story from 30 something...

I had some nice Marvin windows put in a few years back. Got the hard sale/sign now from one guy, then ended up calling these folks http://www.classicinstallation.com/ when I saw the van in the neighborhood.

I was 36 and the owner came to meet me. Not too much chat, straight forward pricing, not the cheapest, but I knew he did work in the area and felt 'comfortable' with him. They did a nice job and i had them back the next summer to do a bay window.

features... local to me, saw van proudly displaying company info in hood, simple website, not pushy.

look, your approach is all well and good........if you're swamped with work and have a two year backlog. If that is the case, congratulations on your success. But it appears that Milt does not have that luxury and is having trouble closing jobs. In that case, a website, brochure, etc could greatly benefit him.

Pretty broad brush JR. I'm 29 and don't meet any of your stereotypes. I've been living on my own since 18 and spent 6 years working construction full-time before going back to school to become an engineer. I was a full-time student and worked full time while supporting my wife and two kids. Within my group of friends, I've venture to say that none of them meet your stereotypes either.

By the way, starting a sentence with "don't take this personally" is a red-flag that you're going to say something personal. Why sugar coat it, just be an ass.

As for this youngun, I do all of my own repair and remodeling. Why? Because most contractors are unethical, unprofessional, and lazy. The few times I do hire someone (like A/C work last summer), I ask for referrals. I don't fight over price, because I'm confident in the work that is being done.

So everyone beneath mr. grizzled old contractor should work on a per hour basis and everyone above should pay on a per job basis.

why?

because mr grizzled old contractor has an EIN and put an ad in the phone book.

yeah, right.

That is the A#1 complaint I hear from customers. " I called three other guys and they never called me back."

I'm not saying that there aren't a bunch of worthless contractors out there. You and I both know the business is full of them. That's nothing new, nor is it unique to construction. There are worthless individuals in all walks of life.

I also never said you shouldn't get more than one bid, or a bid with a breakdown of the costs. Every bid I submit is against two other companies, or more, and an architect goes through it with a fine toothed comb. I have no issues with that, because I always put more work into my bids than my competition. The closer they look, the better I look.

I work in commercial construction, so it's a little different than home re-modeling, but I am dealing with people of the age group that Milt was concerned with in his original post. I am just relating my experience over the last 10 or 15 years in dealing with people that don't have the skills to do the job they are paid to do and lack the desire to improve. Blame them, or blame upper managment for putting them in that position, I don't care. Either way, it does not bode well for the future of our country.

For the record, I do business with companies that are so well known that everyone in the US will be familiar with them. Everyone. My contracts are fairly high-dollar, given the nature of what I do. The people that I "work for" typically have zero knowledge of construction and zero training in management. They cost their company money every day that they come to work. I find this to be unacceptable,as sooner or later the costs trickle down to me, the consumer. This was not a problem when companies had people performing these same jobs that actually knew the business they were engaged in. I used to deal with in-house licensed architects. They got rid of those older guys and promoted people with no real education or skills.

Look around you. It's happening everywhere.

JR

If you're the exception to the rule, so be it. I don't know you, so you may be right. Do me this favor, though. When you turn 50, look back on your life and reflect a little. Ask yourself how much you really knew about life when you were in your 20's and 30's. The answer will probably surprise you. It did surprise me....

And I'm not an ass. I'm unethical, unprofessional, and lazy, apparently, but I'm really a nice guy.

Cheers,
JR

At some point in the past you were likely young, inexperienced, and over your head. Fortunately some older jackass didn't fire you, and instead let you develop into the picture of perfection that you claim to be today.

Coming from someone that is relatively young and in a management position, your post is blatantly offensive. I'm relatively new to my job, but perform it more efficiently than some of my peers with 20+ years of experience. You seem to believe that everyone of a certain age-group is dumb, lazy, indifferent, and dis-interested in improvement. It's ironic, because by disregarding these people you eliminate any opportunity for YOU to learn from THEM. I'm sure your arrogance will simply lead you to roll your eyes at that comment, but everyone in life has something to offer, and every day is an opportunity to learn something new.

In the end, you simply come across as a bitter old man, complaining about "these damn kids today".

I will happily acknowledge that I don't know a damn thing. In 30 years, I'll give you the same answer. "The first step on the road to wisdom is admitting that you don't know anything".

You know, I'm not trying to offend you. I'm simply offering up my experience in dealing with some really big companies, that used to do a better job than they do now. Like I said before, maybe the problem is with upper management, for putting people into a job they are not trained to do. Consider out-sourcing; I think that is a huge mistake also and it will bite us in the butt sooner or later. At the end of the day, the problem is real and it is pandemic. Ask yourself how many Fortune 500 companies are healthy today.

As for the bitter old man comment, the older generation has always complained about the next one. It's nothing new. The old farts can't stand the new music, either. Sound familiar?

JR

When it comes to sales, people want a reasonable price and good quality, but all else being equal THEY ARE GOING TO HIRE SOMEONE THEY LIKE.

As painful as it is to admit, not all of us are naturally likeable. When I first started my business I went to great lengths to explain how I was qualified and tell prospects what all I was going to do for them. My close rate was fair at best. After reading the classic, "The Best Salesman in the World," I changed my method and now my close rate is very high. The difference? Instead of educating potential clients about me and what I can do for them, I now ask questions. What do you need? What do you want? What are your past experiences with similar services? I got a referral recently and during an initial half hour phone meeting I didn't do much more than ask those three questions. The woman talked about herself and her business for half an hour and at the end of our conversation told me how she could tell I was someone she could work with. I laughed to myself as I had hardly said a word.

Like it or not, we're all salesmen who use sales skill every day. We can all benefit from understanding that fact. If you haven't read "The Best Salesman in the World" I'd highly recommend it. It's a very quick read. There are some religous overtones you may or may not agree with, but the principals in this book apply in any field - sales or not.

Thanks much for all the replies. I can see through all this like a freshly washed pane of glass. I really don't want to deal with what I thought I didn't want to deal with. You guys put the lid on the can.

BTW, I was asked to do some welding by 2 members of this BBS who are also 30 somethings (or close enough). I explained what I always explain and never heard back. Obviously I have a problem, but I'm not going to build a freakin' website showing what I've done with cars. All you have to do is come here to see.

Well, that's where these 2 chaps started out, right here. So, what was there to tell them? No, I don't give hand jobs with my work. I do what I'm expected to do and about 50% more mostly at no charge. You do not see that, get hosed.

I had a long conversation with another contractor yesterday who is one year older than me (63) and has had a parallel career right here in the LB. He really is the master of the art with a huge shop that builds everything from scratch. The common theme through out the conversation was about what dicks we really are and how many dicks are around both older and younger.

I'm not pandering to anyone from this day on (as if I was ever going to). I'd rather deliver mail that put up with what has been affirmed here. Those that want me to work for them and can say please and thank you will get the same back from me twice over.

The rest can kiss my ass.

Milt, what you said in your post #26 shows you are on top of things... the photo albums are definitely a good thing, and people of all ages should be able to deal with you professionally, as there doesn't seem to be anything unreasonable in your approach... especially the fact that you are not high pressure... that is the thing that will run people off like crazy.

Just keep doing what you're doing.

Just remember: you aren't doing them a favor by working for them. And I always say please and thank-you.SmileWavy

As someone on the shallow end of said generation, I can assure you that things aren't going to magically get easier anytime soon.

Most people here have hit it on the head as far as the analysis goes.
As far as how to fix the inherent problems seen is another can of worms. The communication breakdown that seems to engulf everyone from the ages of 15-30 right now only adds to the underlying problem of not being able to value certain aspects. .....



...Maybe if you send bids via text messaging, they will 'get it'. :-(

"No one knows nothing."

I can't stand the music either. What does that say about me?:p

Sounds very similar to the sandler sales system.

The goal: Find the customers pain.

The technique: Just ask "what do you need/want/expect?"

And you wonder why you have no work. Your attitude sucks, and you don't even try to hide it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy (Post 4636633) Just remember: you aren't doing them a favor by working for them.

The problem AINT the 30 somethings....it's Milt.

You have good taste? :D

JR

I'm not offended. I think there is a certain lack of humility in my generation (I'm 39). The mass media has permeated every aspect of our lives. Real human tragedies like war and famine become just another note in the media blare. And with the latest generation of web services like Facebook(kind of old now...) and twitter, its YOU thats the star of the show. People expose their entire lives to the world. Cause its all about them.

I have indeed spent most of my working life in front of a computer screen, and yes I am a bit ADD. Not uncommon in Seattle.

Fixed it for you, Matt. :p

You know, I wasn't going to mention that, although I have followed his other threads... :D

I'm not one to talk... I have a buttload of cars and bikes. Thinning the herd soon...

JR

No one would confuse me with a 30-something, but I look for these same things pointed out by einreb.

I spend a lot of my day in meetings (cell phones off or ringers silenced). Internet searches and email exchanges when I'm back at my desk are preferred to playing phone tag.

Why do you need a timie and material quote? A simple break down of the different trades should be more then enough. Are you willing to pay for it? I still hope its ok to make 20 % on top of labor and materials. Do you ask for a Tand M breaking down at a mid to high end restaurant? Its not all homeowners that are like that. It is the young punks, that have an ok job and they let the money get to their head and it is not that much money. Just because they are paying you they think they can treat a tradesman like crap. I always tell people, We are not expensive, its just you can't affort to pay for the better thing in life.

you re an old fart like me. I am 42 going on 68. 20 years of dealing with all kind of good and bad people who want to screw you out of hundreds of thousands of dollars will make you a little uneasy when that particular group of people come along. your guards are up. Until they get burn by fire, they will never know what it feels like. tell you this, I really don't like to hire younger sub contractors either ( late 20 early 30). I like the 40-50 crowd. they are a little more reailable, experience and don't always take things personal. The young guys I found that if they need to leave, they pick up and go. Under bid for example or come back for corrections.

No man, its not Milt. He just spend time with these 2 guy, who's going to pay for his time. He might even try to educate them on how to go about doing it. then they may go and get someone else to weld it up for them using Milts suggestions. I am so freaking tire of tire kickers. I haven't had to deal with them for a long time now. I just tell them to go get @$^&? in a polite way if I don't think they are too serious or lack funding. they think you have give them something ( info and design) for nothing. Until you are in our shoe, you will never know. everytime you talk or try and sell someone, it cost you money out of pocket.

A customer doesn't want to be educated, he wants his job done with as little muss and fuss as possible, for a reasonable price.

Generally the customer is going to look down on the tradesman, the last thing he wants is to feel inferior to someone he is hiring to do what he probably considers "menial labor". It's pretty basic psychology.

I've done a good deal of outside sales work myself in the past. IME, trying to 'educate' people is a real no go.

A customer almost never WANTS to be educated, but they SHOULD be educated.

The trick is to give them the education in such a manner as they don't realize they're being taught.

90% of all "sales pitches" are exactly that.

Actually, you're right on this. Being somewhat accomplished at what I do and having a decent education, command of the language and a high IQ, I'm sure I come off as somewhat condescending. The typical homeowner is condescending to the trades. Bad mix.

Hey, I've had a good run. I've sold well over 2 million dollars worth of windows and doors installing every one myself. I'd say that my sales methods were good enough over the years. Before windows I did general contracting and before that, painting. All in all, I've been working for Mr. and Mrs. Homeowner for a lot of years. They have changed more than I.

As I said, you guys have nailed it. The younger homeowners are by and large not up to speed. When I see some jerkoff selling a job that he does not intend to do right for whatever reason, AND HE SELLS THAT JOB, I think well, they deserve what they get.

I thank you all again for telling me what I needed to hear. It makes me feel a bit better as I get ready to pack up the tools and move on. Oh, I'll still hang a door now and then just to keep fresh. And just to prove that there is someone who knows how to do that with a perfect margin on the sides and top. It's a lost art and no one cares that it got lost.

Hey nothing i said is personal milt, your own comments made it clear you're not in the mood to "play the game" anymore. Sales is all about playing the game.

When a man comes to the realization that he doesn't want to deal with the BS anymore, as you have, as you said yourself, it's time to move onto something else.

More power to you man, i hope you find something you like better.

I care. Although I am a few years past the 30's.

I found a family owned window and door place a dozen years ago. The guy that does their installations for the windows is fantastic and cares about what he does and he is a clean worker and cleans up after himself.

While there are those of us that care, it is difficult to find workers such as yourself that care and take pride in what they do. I think your statement may be a bit premature, but unless there is a change in direction soon, I feel by the next couple of generations it will be correct. No one will care, builds and products will be cheap and not last. We have a good start on that already. To me it is sad, but to those that don't know or care about quality I guess it doesn't matter.

If you talked to me like that wrt a job i was looking to have done i'd slam the door in your face and go order a pizza.

There are plenty of fellas doing the same job as you that can do it without the attitude, and do it with a smile. I'd even pay them more to do it.

If i wanted to deal with an acidic personality i'd just get married.

Seriously, "tire kickers" as you put it are just another term for "educated consumers."

You want idiots for customers, like all salesmen do. I don't blame you, but some people actually use their brain before they make big purchases, and those people will want some explanation for why a job you quote costs what it costs.

I think both or you are wrong (Sniper and look). Relax.

Here's one that gets me and it's a lot older than I am. This happened a lot when I was painting.

"How many gallons will it take?"

How long will it take?"

(wheels in head turning)

OMG, revelation. They just figured out how much I want to make an hour. But, they never consider any of the costs of doing business.

The more I think about this, the more I say fvk people. I was supposed to go into the family's advertising business but I didn't because I thought it was BS. I really should have been a lawyer, but that's immoral to me.

Leave it to me to pick a life long career that is always an upstream struggle. I did sell cars for 2 months. That point is that I have been identified as the "contractor" and the "used car salesman." Why would anyone take these jobs given the preconceived notions?

Don't ask me, that's one area where I am really ignorant. I'll now look for work that is really popular. Maybe I'll open an ice cream store.

You have got to be kidding. Did you forget to type this in green?

A tire kicker is someone who only cares about one thing: the lowest price. That is guaranteed to get them a lousy job but that's not what is most important to them. I have seen this type of person knowingly waste somebody's time, just to see if the person they intended to use was giving them "the best price." Their word is no good.

As an example I've had land owners ask me for a bid on the construction of a new building, a bid that would take me a month to prepare, when they already had a contractor picked and just needed a better bid to leverage their first bid downward. I'm not stupid and I don't mind telling this sort of asswipe to go pound sand.

JR

I assume the phone call remark referred to me. If you could find time to think about it, there is a big difference between not being some who "cannot" make a call during the day and someone that chooses not to. Seems pretty clear to me. Why would it even cross your mind to make assumptions about someone else's employment or life?
The situation is simple. I have money and work. I am willing to pay equal or more than the going rate in the area where the work is to be performed. If a person wants to do some of my work for me and earn some of that money...they need to be accessable to me. I cannot call them or meet with them from about 6am until about 8pm...and I am either out of town or out of the country on short notice...a lot. My life is one that requires a lot of sacrifice...but one that also pays pretty well. I cannot adjust what I do...so a person that wants my business has to make the adjustment if they want the work; take it or leave it. Someone else will be happy to get the work. I will have more time and availablity some day...maybe after I retire. But, then I will do the work my self.
If people in business cannot make adjustments to suit the customer...they really do not want the work. Anyone that is not hungry enough to make themself available to potential customers are not hungry enough for the work to suit me anyways. What is this country coming to?

Yeah, what is this country coming to? I use to get calls at 9:30 oir 10:00 in the evening about some idea that they have over dinner for adesign change. Of course I don't return their calls. They call Sundays, WTF? It workd both ways. When I did the project for the retired general ambassador of Germany in Pasadena, they were living in France and we would call each other only in the morning or late night, so was can have enjoy our private time. It works both ways.

That asswipe is just using you to get a better price, and guess what- it works.

Smart buyer.

I do my job with a huge smile. Please calm down. In my contract, every thing is broken down by trade and how much for each. I even spells out how much I will be making by the end of the job. I don't understand why do I need to break it down any more into hours. How much time does it take to build a custom set of cabinets for your kitchen? How do I break down 30K worth of the cabinetry into man hours. Shoud I include staining and finishing? Insatllation and delivery and design? I sure can but it will take an hour to put it in writing. This is only one small thing. The last big remodel was over 350000+. I don't know how else to talk to you so you understand. So let just say I have broken it down for you, what would you do. Thanks, I think you are too much. but it was too much to begining with, when you first heard about the number. What did I just do? I spend a week of more just because you want to know. That my friend, is a tire kicker, not an educated client. Do you still think that's attitude or...

enjoy the pizza, I am one of those guys they pay more to do the job, because we always get it done, on time, on budget and with a smile always, and my clients know it.


Jeff

I agree with you entirely.

Any contractor that refuses work because he's "too good for this crap" will lose the job to one who is not.

Simple as that.

No it doesn't. If you don't need the work...cut out half your potential customers. Just don't be one of those that whine about not getting enough work. I have no problem not paying my money to people who cannot do business by email when it is the only method I have available. My employer expects to be able to contact me 24 hrs per day if necessary...and expects me to show up 30 minutes later ready to go to whatever God-forsaken place they want me to go to. They expect me to regularly work 12 hrs per day or more under often poor conditions. I have no problem asking people I employ to simply communicate via email. If they choose not to make themself available, then they can find their work elsewhere. There are people that actually want to work that will do the job.