I'm not getting along with the 30 somethings.
 

Not at all. If there's any work out there for a carpenter and I take a crack at it, I don't get the job. Closer to my age, I get almost every one and they love me. I do a good job and I clean up after myself. I'm polite and I'll carry groceries if I see someone with lots of bags. Plus, I have 38 years of experience.

The young set don't seem to expect anything but how much can they get out of any given person. Lately, I haven't even been able to get a return call on an estimate. They give me their cell number in the next area code even if they live a mile form me. I get VM. I spend an hour on each job site survey, likely more.

Don't people realize that an estimate, as they are called (more like firm quotation), costs between $75 and $125 when you consider all the work I and the the suppliers go thru to price out a job? And that's a small job. Jobs in the 6 figures cost hundreds of dollars to cost out. I've shopped my prices and I beat the home centers every time.

I'm beginning to think that the 30 somethings WANT slip shod work. The stuff I see every day done by inexperienced labor ranges from bad to horrible. But that's beside the point. I'm not getting past the front door, so to speak. This has nothing to do with income. Most 30 somethings shopping for contractors are making well into the 6 figures combined income. Then they buy crap.

WTF do the 30 somethings want? I'm wondering if it's instant gratification. I know I don't lie, but the others will.

"I can get all this done in 2 days."

(2 days later) "Well, we ran into some unexpected difficulties. We're short handed, the materials are not here and the job is tougher than we thought."

"We'll be done in a month, but we need more money to finish."

Is that why I'm not working? Because I don't do that schit?

Well, I don't, so I guess I won't.

As a thirty-something, let me give you some stories from my perspective.

Three years ago I got an estimate for doing the roof. The contractor was recomended by a friend who had her roof replaced. I told the contractor upfront that I couldn't afford the job that year and was getting an estimate so that I could budget for next year. I did tell him that I would have him do the gutters, downspouts, and soffits that year so that it wasn't a waste of his time. His estimate came in at $6,000 for everything including a ridge vent and architectural shakes. $800 of that was the downspouts, gutters, and new soffits.

As promised, I call him a year later and leave a message. I never get a call back. I call again a year after that and the phone is disconnected. I'm left to guess he went out of business.

I call some other contractors for estimates. One guy quotes me $12,000 for replace what I have (3-in-1 tabs and spinny vents) and $16,000 for architectural shakes and a ridge vent. That over $10,000 more expensive than the other quote I got! I priced material myself at $2,000 - $3,000, so his quotes amount to between $10,000 - $13,000 in labor!!! I tell him I'll discuss it with my wife (though I've made up my mind), and he calls me back a few days later and I simply tell him there is no way in hell I can afford that and he is over double what I was expecting price-wise.

At this point, I don't want to even bother calling another contractor because I have no idea how much padding they are going to build in to their estimates. I'll negotiate if the figures are ball-park, but it's a waste of both our time if the numbers come in ridiculously high. These guys are starving for work and seem to want to pin their success for the year on my back.

Chris, I see some problems there. First of all, the 6K price may have been too low. After all the guy is no longer around. You would only know if you have 3 or so ests to average out. Now, 2K for materials may not be all that the roofer needs. Lots of sundries in every business add up fast. Roofers pay an enormous amount of workers' comp. In CA it's well over 100 %. Only ship rigging is higher last I knew. Maybe your guy was not insured.

I don't think this is a problem you can solve unless you let some roofers take a look at your job and discuss it with you. "Padding" is not a term that flies today. But a business has to have a positive P and L to be able to come out and fix anything that might be wrong or missed. Otherwise, they won't be around either.

BTW, roofing is an interesting trade. The job is to cover up and waterproof. Many times they cover up their own mistakes either by lack of knowledge or maybe something else. Those mistakes usually end up being a leak and they are very difficult to find. I have seen some doozies. To be able to call out the original contractor to find that mistake is worth whatever it would cost to hire another company to come out and find it. You hope you get a good price, but at the same time, a leak proof job. And a company that will be there if you need them.

I say it's probably a god thing you didn't hire the 6K guy, but who knows now?

I see a couple problems with that generation (mine).

- Little to no practical construction knowledge. Lets face it, many haven't ever seen the business end of a hammer. Back in the day knowing how to fix stuff was part of being a well-rounded man. Today it's a lost art. Why? I have no clue. But no practical construction knowledge means you can't distinguinsh crap from quality.
- Wal-Mart mentality. Go with the lowest bidder. Everything is disposable. There's not a big focus on quality or building relationships. Now and cheap are everything.

Obviously generalizing here, but I see a lot of this in many of my peers.

30-somethings only care about cheap, they don't appreciate or care about quality, professionalism or the value of trade experience.

Residential owners are the worst - you should know this.

Milt, maybe you could you handle estimates differently with the different age groups so you aren't out so much time with the 30-somethings; for them, you could look things over and give them a ballpark idea (telling them it's ballpark), and that you do quality work that meets code, you're bonded and insured, and you clean up after the job is done, but it has been your experience that everybody is going for the absolute bottom dollar these days and if they want top quality work, you can deliver it, but it will cost them (name a worthwhile price) to get a more detailed estimate.

That way they've got something invested... they're a lot less likely to back out or not return your calls if they've got some money on the line trying to find the best man for the job.

And maybe hand them a sheet with some references on it... maybe even with some photos of your work.

Weedin' out the rifraff. If that sounds unworkable, maybe just stick with folks closer to your age, as you say, because you get almost every one of those jobs.

Milt, I understand exactly what you are describing. I don't know if it is a generational thing, or just an issue of experience, but there are some people who buy based on lowest price, without regard for any other issue. When I was younger I probably thought that all professionals were the same, so I should pick the cheapest one. On top of that, some people think that everyone charging them anything are making a huge profit off of them, so they should take the cheapest price and try to goose the contractor on their bill. Now that I am older I select the best person for the job and actually ask if they are charging enough for the job. I tell them that I understand how they make their living, and that I want them to do a good job for me, so I want to make sure they're being paid well enough to value my business and do a good job for me. I also now understand the value of establishing relationships with contractors and repairmen. You wouldn't want to spend the summer in Minnesota building out a basement, would you?

You should simply tell people that you do not compete for business based on price. You compete based on the quality of your work. If they don't value good quality work, they are better off with someone else. But if they value code compliance and work that will last and not need to be redone in a few years, they should go with you, because you'll charge them a fair price for craftmanship work. I'll be that when you explain it to people up front, you'll lose some of the chaff right away, but that you'll get more customers and higher paying clients over time because you'll discover you've put yourself in the market for people who value good work and are willing to pay for it, instead of the price-at-any-cost market.

Hey, Hey, Hey, that's enough with the generalizations.

I can't imagine what the problem is. Knowing what I know about Milt, I'd love to have him come work on my place. Anything that he'd be willing to do. I figure I'd learn more by watching him than I ever could any other way.

This thread reminded me of a related thread that I posted here.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/471757-how-do-you-find-contractor-around-home.html

Milt, how do you present? Do you show up in overalls with a ZZ Top beard and a hammer hanging off of your belt? Do you have a shirt with a business logo on it? Do you take pictures of work you've done and references?

I can tell you that it's can be scarey to hire someone that's not a big well known chain. It's impossible to tell how good they'll really be. (sadly, the quality of the well known chain work is known and is generally just above crap at best, but at least there's a 1-800 to call and complain).

I think that a lot of 30 somethings want quality, they just don't know how to find it which is why I posted my other question.

Milt.
we have seen your work..
your not a carpenter / no offense to those that are..
your a craftsman..
you would build Cathedral that would stand the test of time
the 30 something..want a sheetmetal mega church..
if rust..so what..pass the plate..AGAIN

Rika

I can't argue with your assessment, Matt. But why not return a phone call it you asked for a price on something? I mean I have quotes for multiple window installations ready in 48 to 72 hours. I show line by line prices, not just a bulk quote. Is that not worth some consideration even if Mr. Smooth Talk is there the next day asking for a deposit check?

I used to try to close jobs on the first visit, but I don't work that way any more and I suggest that homeowners take time to think things through before signing a contract. That actually might be hurting me at this point. I should try a slam job on someone in the near future to see if it floats.

Here's a typical "sales" job scenario. At making the appointment, "I have to have both the husband and wife meet."

At the home, "Hello, what would you like to purchase today?"

"OK, we've walked through the home and I see what you are looking for. Let's sit down here at your kitchen table. You sit there next to your husband and I'll sit over here."

"This product is the one that best meets your requests and I can get a good deal on it because I do a high volume with this brand. Would you prefer a 20 year warranty or life time? Well, this has the life time."

Our best price today is $xxxx. I can give you this price right now because I'm ordering quite a few of these for jobs I've just sold and we get the volume price. Our order is on my desk but I can get you in on this today (tonight). Tomorrow the order goes in and I will be unable to match the price I placed in front of you."

"If you will write a check for the deposit today, I will guaranty the price even if there is a price increase."

When would be convenient to start the installation? What days are best? As soon as we finish this form, I will put you on the calender for the easiest time for you."

Consider joining one of the local networking groups. They're the hot thing among the 30 somethings. you'll get lots of referrals, and might hook up with a few other independent companies that can help you as well. At the very least, you get a sense of how the "youths" of today run small businesses, deal with customers, etc which will give you (the wise crotchety old man) a leg up on them ;)

Milt - I think most people only care about bottom line cost to them. Very few people plan to stay in houses more than 4/5 years, so they only want quick, temporary, cheap fixes. Maybe you should try only speaking espanol.

I suppose your comment is tongue-in-cheek, but the Hispanic market is huge in SoCal. The problem is I work a small farm electing to not drive very far for jobs. That alone hurts, but I'll take the trade off.

Given the comments so far, I think I'll try some of that aggressive selling. If I can't get the courtesy of a return call, I might as well use my time to drop kick these temporary residents and their instant gratification into action and money.

hold on the aggressive..
it's sales...
it's about trust..
listen..listen
if they feel they can trust you..
price becomes secondary..
spend some time explaining the why's,how come,
what you have found to be a better product..
the rep. of contractors flies ahead of you..
you need to show/convince them you not one of them..
I can get cheap a mechanic or
I continue to trust Jones Autowerks
Jones has had my biz for 11 yrs.

Rika

I have friends that are home improvement contractors. Both are doing well. One brings a portfolio of past projects to meetings with potential customers, He is building a website that will have his project portfolio available, and also will have photo galleries of ongoing work..

Making your work and skill set available on the web may be helpful.... To those 30 somethings who shop and live via the web..

I have heard that before, not sure I by into it.. Given what a pain in the balls moving is, and the cost of moving, closing costs etc..

I have purchased a roof, AC, furnace, some mudding and am in my 30's. I will tell you about the furnace.

Sales Guy 1. - obviously the contractor and probably came straight from the job. This guy seemed good told me what I needed but his down fall was his "quote" was written on the back of a business card. He also gave no information on what furnace or any specs and didnt explain why he had recommended what he did.

Sales Guy 2. As slick as they come, trying every trick in the book, spent more time on the "free gift" that I would get than the furnace. This guy I basically told that I wanted to buy a furnace and if I wanted a "Free" alarm clock I would go the F'n Walmart.

Sales Guy 3. Still a sales guy but someone with knowledge. He made some recomendation on what I needed and why, showed me some options, left brochures, a professionaly hand written quote and references.


I went with number 3. Number 1 was considered but I didnt feel I had enough info to make a good decsision. With the third guy I was able to look at specs, type the furnace model into google and just generally feel comfortable with the decision. From what I remember they wernt the cheapest but somewhere in the middle.

I could only hope to find a flooring contractor in San Antonio that would go over a quote like that. Seriously, it's freaking me out thinking about it because normally I do my own work but I know next to nothing about how to do this kind of work. Not all young people care solely about price. Honestly I'm more likely to go with someone in the middle of the road and whoever provides info that makes the most sense.

That + high price of failure = me finding someone else to do it.

Sales and convenience....

If you can sell yourself, then the next step is to make yourself available via e-mail or text. It takes me minutes to text someone or tap out an e-mail on my Blackberry, but I'd have to find time to place a call or return a call. I can text in the elevator or on the pooper..... I can't always take calls placed to my cell when I'm working, and I wont' run out of a meeting to return a call. When I'm done with the meeting I'm rushing to get stuff done before the next meeting or call or what ever. By the time I get back to thinking about something personal...it's 6 PM and it's too late to call back people who have regular business hours.

I wouldn't take it as a door being slammed in your face after the estimate. Just keep calling and leaving polite messages about how you understand they are busy but that you can be availble to them.

Of course if you didn't do a good sales job they're not going to return your calls. I've had contractors come with a portfolio and all the brochures and tech info. Those are the ones I think are serious about getting the job done right and without surprises.

Manage expectations...if you know it's going to take 5 days, but the client thinks it can be done in 2...explain to the client why 2 days is not enough for you or anyone else.

30 somethings are also tired of self-worshipping contractors thinking they deserve $400/hr just because they took some classes at the local tech school and think they can nail a couple 2x4's together.

30 somethings are similarly sick of hearing what a pain in the ass 'homeowners' are and how we are supposed to trust them to do right by us no matter what.

30 somethings don't appreciate being talked down to about the functioning of an electrical or mechanical subsystem of our homes. does anyone know everything? i don't think so.

30 somethings aren't all bad just as contractors aren't all bad. but many representatives of both sides have earned a pretty bad reputation for the rest.

to clarify not referring to Milt just wanted to offer a different perspective.

Hook up with a Realtor who can recommend you to clients. I don't mess around with Angie's list or any of that. If I want someone that does your type of work, I call my old realtor. I bought the house 5 years ago through her and will call for that kind of thing. She's in it for the long haul so she has incentive not to recommend idiots.

I do a lot of stuff based on price, but a good recommendation goes a long way.

+1. Although a premium should also be within reason.

Milt-

It might be that they look at you as a "washed up old man", and don't know what value that 38 years of experience you have brings to the table. Hell, do they even KNOW that you have 38 years of experience?

I'd recommend putting together a little package (brochure? PDF doc? whatever?) outlining who you are, your experience, the work you've done, and the situations where that experience paid off for your clients. Make it relate to their situation.

In other words, help educate them to understand what your value is, and get them thinking about the right questions that would make them come to the conclusion that you're the guy for the job. Get them to think about the questions they SHOULD be asking other contractors, but either don't know to, or won't get the "right" (AKA "Milt's") answers to.

If you come off as having their best interest mind, it works wonders.

I have to do the same thing in application/systems development... it seems that 99% of my time is spent educating the client before they sign on to use me for the project so they know what they're looking at or can expect.

And, when all is said and done, there are still a bunch of idiots out there who are going to make stupid, ill-informed decisions, regardless of what others do to try and help them.


Best of luck to you...

Milt, I am just a llittle over 30 something. I don't go after that 30 something group. They usually don't have any money or should I say deep pockets. Many on that group are the know it all who's done research on the net or see too much HD freaking TV. They feel everybody is ripping them off. Unless they live in an up scale neighborhood or have friends, familes whom we have done work for, or leads from an architect or designer we know. If not forget it. I have not read through all of the posts yet, but I will get back to you later. I gotta to finish this stupid bid for a big cheese who manages a bunch computer geeks who build smart bombs. He's 39 and drives a Boxter, After this, I am thinking hopefully he will be 40 when he signs the contract with us. This is our 6th meeting with with designers and architects. Talking about spending time. I am with you, I have never, ever done ****ty work. We build above and beyond min code and give sound advice. I know what you mean about that 30 something group. Let em' get screw then they will love guys like us. They will be back. We have to go out and have a beer and talk war stories. I am sure I can learn a bunch from you in both business and tricks of the trade.

Someone hit their head on the nail..

My basic approach has always been to educate the potential customer on whatever they are getting ready to purchase, Yes, I have so many photo albums that they are boring. I've actually separated them into categories. I never sell from the negative. I don't raz on other contractors. And, again yes, the bulk of my work has always been referrals, but with less people doing work, there is less asking friends, etc., who is good.

90 % of the customers I encounter are women. The last 2 youngins' that didn't bother to respond got me be referral. I have to admit that there are certain types I won't respond to. I won't identify them here because I don't want to start a war. They may be not who you think. I might add 30 somethings to the list.

Good idea about the leads groups. If I can find a seniors referral channel, I may go that route. I'm not looking for much these days, just a little work now and then to keep me busy when I want to be and to keep the wolf away from the door.

I feel your pain. I'm in commercial construction and I do work for large companies. Over the last 10 or 15 years I have seen the old guard kicked to the curb and replaced by a generation that is truly clueless. It seems to me that this country is headed down the hill, but fast.

Each year it gets harder for me to accept the truly stupid decisions that I see on an essentially daily basis. I work for people that have no idea what they are supposed to be doing and I end up having to tell them how to do their jobs, just to get projects fnished. You wouldn't believe the money they waste.

I'd love to get out of the business.

JR

Out of the business. My dream. I think continuously about what I could be doing besides what I do. It's just such a good fit for me. I mean if I were 20, I could be a lifeguard. There is so much that is no longer possible and the list grows short.

Remember the the career thread? Amazing how many worked their way up into engineering and such from flipping burgers and mowing grass. I've been too enthralled with the damn tools of the trade to move up.

Milt, there's a lot of good advice in this thread. Most of it centers on selling yourself. You know that you're better than 98% of the yahoos out there, but you have to ensure that your CUSTOMERS understand. As opposed to a photo album, how about a professionally prepared flyer with a few interesting pictures, customer referrals, and information on your experience and beliefs? Make them KNOW that you are the best.

Also, try to focus on what most other contractors are NOT. Show up in a clean, professional vehicle. Be neatly groomed and on time. Write up a comprehensive estimate and make sure you explain things that you are doing where others might cut corners. Make sure you can be easily reached (cell, text, email, etc) and RETURN THOSE PHONE CALLS. Not saying you don't do these things, but most contractors don't.

Souk is right. I have a little money and work that needs to be done in several different states..yet I cannot even seem to contact folks to do the work for me. I work 12 to 14 hours per day and have little time to screw around and I cannot make calls during the day. I have been trying to get some work done for over a year in NC by a man that has done work for me before. I know he needs the work, but without a web or email presence...we just cannot do business because I cannot contact him unless I happen to catch him by calling on a rare day off...but I am usually too busy. The last time I was able to get a job accomplished was by posting here looking for a Pelican that would do carpentry work in the area. One called and took charge of my problem and I gave him pretty much a blank check and decision authority to determine what work was needed (turned out to be a $150K+ job). I am a pretty good carpenter for an amatuer and tend to let the jobs accumulate because I think I could do the jobs myself if I just had time.

Also, it seems to me that many contractors/bulders just are not realistic and try their best to sell me something I do not want. Don't try to force me to buy something that is outrageously expensive for my tract house (that actually belongs in the Taj Mahal. I had A/C installed in my hme in NM. I wanted zoned heating and cooling for the house (2 small units) but let the guy talk me into a cheaper solution (a single very large unit). He probably thought I would not do the job if it were expensive..but I would not have asked if that was not what I wanted. I have been quite unhappy with the system I bough because I have a great deal of difficulty balancing temperatures between floors or heat or cool different floors independently (which is certainly inefficient)>

Do you have a website? Many young people today expect to see everything on the web, a business without at least a simple website seems sketchy, flakey, etc. Also a website is a great way to show your work, present your qualifications, showcase testimonials, sell your services.

Do you get your clients to give you good reviews on services like Angies List? I usually find a contractor, if not by word of mouth, through that site. Maybe others here can suggest other such sites.

Do you take time to explain to the prospective client what work is involved, give them a little tidbit of insight so they feel knowledgeable and included, state your warranty terms, etc? Most young people have little experience in having work done, they are insecure, and as willing to pay for feeling secure and reassured as they are ready to fall for a sales job. They have certainly heard horror stories about rip-off contractors and often would pay more if they are confident of not getting one.

Huh.

Well, as a thirty something, I'll play.

How about this? We are not interested in your 38 years worth of war stories or your personal charm. Show us a presentation about what work you have done, provide excellent graphics, be able to discuss what we are seeing in depth. My generation is not into 'folksy'. We are into 'Powerpoint'. We want information in a format we can quantify. We want incentives.

Were demanding SOBs. Sorry.

[snarky]

BTW, if you don't have a website, then do kindly get a clue.

[/snarky]

HardDrive,

Web site? I love those. Now we are on the subject of age, a 40 year old neighbor(owner of a gasket company) has been wanting to build me a web site that show case all my work and pages of who I am and what we have done. All for free, because I held his hand through a tough hill side addition with his contractor whom he later fired when I first moved there. That's his privite life we weren't suppose to know about. A geek. I refused time and again. He couldn't understand why. swears that it is necessary in today electronic / now world. He saids the calls will never stop. Some of us don't want to be pester with tire kickers. that's how we weed them out. You gotta return emails or sit on the phone to answer their 100 questions. I much rather go out to their place and see the site and meet their wife, kids and ask a bunch of questions to see if they have the money to fund the project before I begin to help them. After the 2nd meeting, I will know if they are the clients for us. Big job or small it makes no difference. Then most of my clients will come over to the house and hang out on the deck have a beer or glass wine and look at drawings. I like the relax way of doing business. Takes the edge off for the both of us. Plus, they get to meet the family , check out all the trick stuff I have done to the house. This way, they know we don't live in the back of a pick-up truck and we will never run away with they deposit because they know where I live. I don't do emails nor have pictures of past work. By the time they come to the house, they are more likely to sign unless they are over budget. In the past 10-12 years, I got about 90+ % of the jobs I looked at unless it blows their budget. They already know who we are through their friends or family. I always return calls within 24 hours even if I wasn't interested in the job. I provide an excellence service, and always meet with the owners at the end of the day during the proj. At least 3 time our of the week. No offence, a lot of 30 somethings can't affort to pay (sometimes to do thing right or custom work). they just don't have the cash flow and are always look for a bargan jsut to get it done. that's ok.

Just how old are you HardDrive? mid or late 30s. I am 42 and that's not that old. I truly think that you are wrong about personal charm. Very important in sales. What do you know about that? By your screen name, It sounds you look at a screen more then you talk to people. How many remodel or construction projects have you done? Indepth discussion cost money. I notice you mention you want too many times. Information cost money. Design, cost money are you willing to part with it at $120 + an hour. See what I mean, after talking with someone for 10 minutes I know if I want to work with them or not. Judging from what you say, it doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience in dealing in business or people. don't knock the old guys. they know a lot more then you think. a lot. I am getting there quick. don't get piss, I am not trying to attack you. I am just telling you as I see it.

I forget to add, most 30 somethings get sticker shock if you are the first they talk to. They can't get a grip on how much a remod proj cost.

Last month, a friend's friend, (3rd grade teacher and her husband in their late 30s. Really nice people) called about a kitchen remodel for a house they had purchased last year. When I got to meet with them, they told me they had some money saved and like to do a remodel. They didn't want to tell me what their budget and kept asking for a rough price. I said about 30-45K. they almost felt out of their seat. They said they have some money saved, what kitchen can...

































$9000 get us? They just don't know and have never done it before so I can't blame them. I am going to have them pay one of my workman go in after hours and weekend and help them out to see if they can get something done. NIce people should get a break. they weren't demanding, and didn't have their noses up in the air. I like and respect that a lot.

I understanding you don't want a war. But, business is business and you should choose who you want to do business with and who you don't. They don't like it, screw em'. they ain't writting the checks are they. Experience forces you to group them into a certain catagories. you become prejudice through it. It a good thing. That's your survival mode kicking in.

you mention that other needing more money to finish. I can't understanding that. if a home owner do not see guarentee maxium price for said project in the contract, then they should ger ripped off. If I underbid, I always finish even if I have to take it in my shorts. thanks god those days are over.

2 things: #1 Just because a person asks for a bid doesn't mean the job gets done by anyone. It doesn't matter if you are highest or lowest price, if they only have 1/3 the money the project will cost (especially if they are looking to upgrade rather than replace out of necessity) nobody is doing the work.

A generation ago someone in their 30's would have been on their own for better than a decade, and when they had contractors bid a job they had a good idea what they were getting into. Today's generation is further behind the curve, they are getting established later in life, and consequently, it is more like dealing with someone in their 20's of a generation ago. They are finding out for the first time what the cost of doing business is.

#2 Lots of people are completely bottom line folks. Either spending more than the lowest price is wasting money, OR, price = quality, so therefore the highest estimate is the best work. You might be losing out on work that you could do better, but the customer thinks he's getting higher quality because your competitor charges more.

Are you guys all ADD? Was it all those years of playing video games that did you in? Too many Mountain Dews?

Don't take this personally, as I don't have time for a flame war, but I see your generation as not taking the time to learn much about life. Instant gratification is what you want, although you don't have enough experience to know good quality when you see it. Looking back, I didn't know doodly squat when I hit my 30's. You don't either.

The younger generations mostly lack what I would call old-fashioned values. No respect, no patience, no humility. They are selfish to the nth degree.

I am amazed by the comments I read here that people can't find the time to make a simple phone call during the day. If you think you're that busy, you're a poor time manager. There is a difference between busy and productive, you ought to learn it. Seriously.

Bye now,
JR

I found out, that in the home improvement business, the two worst customers are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. The clueless young and the cheap frugal elderly. The young have no idea what things are worth,and not everything is like you see on television 'home shows". The older customers want everything for nothing and will nickle and dime you. Plus they hover over you as you work. But I would still rather deal with them.

The younger clients just want it done right away and dont really give a crap about what is involved in a job. They expect you to be a miracle worker.

I've walked away from many good $$ jobs, just because I knew the customer was going to be a nightmare to deal with.

Who is the customer here?

Respect and humility and particularly patience are exactly what is lacking in many contractors. Any homeowner who doesn't like your proposal is automatically a selfish, disrespectful punk who has no appreciation for the old ways. I guess that just because a contractor may be a grizzled old man who has been slogging away for 30+ yrs we should all bow down and pay whatever he asks and never even think to price shop lest he be offended. And God forbid anyone should ask for a time & materials quote.