I'm not getting along with the 30 somethings.

[Zeke]

Not at all. If there's any work out there for a carpenter and I take a crack at it, I don't get the job. Closer to my age, I get almost every one and they love me. I do a good job and I clean up after myself. I'm polite and I'll carry groceries if I see someone with lots of bags. Plus, I have 38 years of experience.

The young set don't seem to expect anything but how much can they get out of any given person. Lately, I haven't even been able to get a return call on an estimate. They give me their cell number in the next area code even if they live a mile form me. I get VM. I spend an hour on each job site survey, likely more.

Don't people realize that an estimate, as they are called (more like firm quotation), costs between $75 and $125 when you consider all the work I and the the suppliers go thru to price out a job? And that's a small job. Jobs in the 6 figures cost hundreds of dollars to cost out. I've shopped my prices and I beat the home centers every time.

I'm beginning to think that the 30 somethings WANT slip shod work. The stuff I see every day done by inexperienced labor ranges from bad to horrible. But that's beside the point. I'm not getting past the front door, so to speak. This has nothing to do with income. Most 30 somethings shopping for contractors are making well into the 6 figures combined income. Then they buy crap.

WTF do the 30 somethings want? I'm wondering if it's instant gratification. I know I don't lie, but the others will.

"I can get all this done in 2 days."

(2 days later) "Well, we ran into some unexpected difficulties. We're short handed, the materials are not here and the job is tougher than we thought."

"We'll be done in a month, but we need more money to finish."

Is that why I'm not working? Because I don't do that schit?

Well, I don't, so I guess I won't.

[legion]

As a thirty-something, let me give you some stories from my perspective.

Three years ago I got an estimate for doing the roof. The contractor was recomended by a friend who had her roof replaced. I told the contractor upfront that I couldn't afford the job that year and was getting an estimate so that I could budget for next year. I did tell him that I would have him do the gutters, downspouts, and soffits that year so that it wasn't a waste of his time. His estimate came in at $6,000 for everything including a ridge vent and architectural shakes. $800 of that was the downspouts, gutters, and new soffits.

As promised, I call him a year later and leave a message. I never get a call back. I call again a year after that and the phone is disconnected. I'm left to guess he went out of business.

I call some other contractors for estimates. One guy quotes me $12,000 for replace what I have (3-in-1 tabs and spinny vents) and $16,000 for architectural shakes and a ridge vent. That over $10,000 more expensive than the other quote I got! I priced material myself at $2,000 - $3,000, so his quotes amount to between $10,000 - $13,000 in labor!!! I tell him I'll discuss it with my wife (though I've made up my mind), and he calls me back a few days later and I simply tell him there is no way in hell I can afford that and he is over double what I was expecting price-wise.

At this point, I don't want to even bother calling another contractor because I have no idea how much padding they are going to build in to their estimates. I'll negotiate if the figures are ball-park, but it's a waste of both our time if the numbers come in ridiculously high. These guys are starving for work and seem to want to pin their success for the year on my back.

[Zeke]

Chris, I see some problems there. First of all, the 6K price may have been too low. After all the guy is no longer around. You would only know if you have 3 or so ests to average out. Now, 2K for materials may not be all that the roofer needs. Lots of sundries in every business add up fast. Roofers pay an enormous amount of workers' comp. In CA it's well over 100 %. Only ship rigging is higher last I knew. Maybe your guy was not insured.

I don't think this is a problem you can solve unless you let some roofers take a look at your job and discuss it with you. "Padding" is not a term that flies today. But a business has to have a positive P and L to be able to come out and fix anything that might be wrong or missed. Otherwise, they won't be around either.

BTW, roofing is an interesting trade. The job is to cover up and waterproof. Many times they cover up their own mistakes either by lack of knowledge or maybe something else. Those mistakes usually end up being a leak and they are very difficult to find. I have seen some doozies. To be able to call out the original contractor to find that mistake is worth whatever it would cost to hire another company to come out and find it. You hope you get a good price, but at the same time, a leak proof job. And a company that will be there if you need them.

I say it's probably a god thing you didn't hire the 6K guy, but who knows now?

[onewhippedpuppy]

I see a couple problems with that generation (mine).

- Little to no practical construction knowledge. Lets face it, many haven't ever seen the business end of a hammer. Back in the day knowing how to fix stuff was part of being a well-rounded man. Today it's a lost art. Why? I have no clue. But no practical construction knowledge means you can't distinguinsh crap from quality.
- Wal-Mart mentality. Go with the lowest bidder. Everything is disposable. There's not a big focus on quality or building relationships. Now and cheap are everything.

Obviously generalizing here, but I see a lot of this in many of my peers.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

30-somethings only care about cheap, they don't appreciate or care about quality, professionalism or the value of trade experience.

Residential owners are the worst - you should know this.

[Heel n Toe]

Milt, maybe you could you handle estimates differently with the different age groups so you aren't out so much time with the 30-somethings; for them, you could look things over and give them a ballpark idea (telling them it's ballpark), and that you do quality work that meets code, you're bonded and insured, and you clean up after the job is done, but it has been your experience that everybody is going for the absolute bottom dollar these days and if they want top quality work, you can deliver it, but it will cost them (name a worthwhile price) to get a more detailed estimate.

That way they've got something invested... they're a lot less likely to back out or not return your calls if they've got some money on the line trying to find the best man for the job.

And maybe hand them a sheet with some references on it... maybe even with some photos of your work.

Weedin' out the rifraff. If that sounds unworkable, maybe just stick with folks closer to your age, as you say, because you get almost every one of those jobs.

[MRM]

Milt, I understand exactly what you are describing. I don't know if it is a generational thing, or just an issue of experience, but there are some people who buy based on lowest price, without regard for any other issue. When I was younger I probably thought that all professionals were the same, so I should pick the cheapest one. On top of that, some people think that everyone charging them anything are making a huge profit off of them, so they should take the cheapest price and try to goose the contractor on their bill. Now that I am older I select the best person for the job and actually ask if they are charging enough for the job. I tell them that I understand how they make their living, and that I want them to do a good job for me, so I want to make sure they're being paid well enough to value my business and do a good job for me. I also now understand the value of establishing relationships with contractors and repairmen. You wouldn't want to spend the summer in Minnesota building out a basement, would you?

You should simply tell people that you do not compete for business based on price. You compete based on the quality of your work. If they don't value good quality work, they are better off with someone else. But if they value code compliance and work that will last and not need to be redone in a few years, they should go with you, because you'll charge them a fair price for craftmanship work. I'll be that when you explain it to people up front, you'll lose some of the chaff right away, but that you'll get more customers and higher paying clients over time because you'll discover you've put yourself in the market for people who value good work and are willing to pay for it, instead of the price-at-any-cost market.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

30-somethings only care about cheap, they don't appreciate or care about quality, professionalism or the value of trade experience.

Residential owners are the worst - you should know this.

Hey, Hey, Hey, that's enough with the generalizations.

I can't imagine what the problem is. Knowing what I know about Milt, I'd love to have him come work on my place. Anything that he'd be willing to do. I figure I'd learn more by watching him than I ever could any other way.

This thread reminded me of a related thread that I posted here.
How do you find a contractor for ... around the home

Milt, how do you present? Do you show up in overalls with a ZZ Top beard and a hammer hanging off of your belt? Do you have a shirt with a business logo on it? Do you take pictures of work you've done and references?

I can tell you that it's can be scarey to hire someone that's not a big well known chain. It's impossible to tell how good they'll really be. (sadly, the quality of the well known chain work is known and is generally just above crap at best, but at least there's a 1-800 to call and complain).

I think that a lot of 30 somethings want quality, they just don't know how to find it which is why I posted my other question.

[Rikao4]

Milt.
we have seen your work..
your not a carpenter / no offense to those that are..
your a craftsman..
you would build Cathedral that would stand the test of time
the 30 something..want a sheetmetal mega church..
if rust..so what..pass the plate..AGAIN

Rika

[Zeke]

I can't argue with your assessment, Matt. But why not return a phone call it you asked for a price on something? I mean I have quotes for multiple window installations ready in 48 to 72 hours. I show line by line prices, not just a bulk quote. Is that not worth some consideration even if Mr. Smooth Talk is there the next day asking for a deposit check?

I used to try to close jobs on the first visit, but I don't work that way any more and I suggest that homeowners take time to think things through before signing a contract. That actually might be hurting me at this point. I should try a slam job on someone in the near future to see if it floats.

Here's a typical "sales" job scenario. At making the appointment, "I have to have both the husband and wife meet."

At the home, "Hello, what would you like to purchase today?"

"OK, we've walked through the home and I see what you are looking for. Let's sit down here at your kitchen table. You sit there next to your husband and I'll sit over here."

"This product is the one that best meets your requests and I can get a good deal on it because I do a high volume with this brand. Would you prefer a 20 year warranty or life time? Well, this has the life time."

Our best price today is $xxxx. I can give you this price right now because I'm ordering quite a few of these for jobs I've just sold and we get the volume price. Our order is on my desk but I can get you in on this today (tonight). Tomorrow the order goes in and I will be unable to match the price I placed in front of you."

"If you will write a check for the deposit today, I will guaranty the price even if there is a price increase."

When would be convenient to start the installation? What days are best? As soon as we finish this form, I will put you on the calender for the easiest time for you."

[Pazuzu]

Consider joining one of the local networking groups. They're the hot thing among the 30 somethings. you'll get lots of referrals, and might hook up with a few other independent companies that can help you as well. At the very least, you get a sense of how the "youths" of today run small businesses, deal with customers, etc which will give you (the wise crotchety old man) a leg up on them

Milt - I think most people only care about bottom line cost to them. Very few people plan to stay in houses more than 4/5 years, so they only want quick, temporary, cheap fixes. Maybe you should try only speaking espanol.

[Zeke]

I suppose your comment is tongue-in-cheek, but the Hispanic market is huge in SoCal. The problem is I work a small farm electing to not drive very far for jobs. That alone hurts, but I'll take the trade off.

Given the comments so far, I think I'll try some of that aggressive selling. If I can't get the courtesy of a return call, I might as well use my time to drop kick these temporary residents and their instant gratification into action and money.

[Rikao4]

hold on the aggressive..
it's sales...
it's about trust..
listen..listen
if they feel they can trust you..
price becomes secondary..
spend some time explaining the why's,how come,
what you have found to be a better product..
the rep. of contractors flies ahead of you..
you need to show/convince them you not one of them..
I can get cheap a mechanic or
I continue to trust Jones Autowerks
Jones has had my biz for 11 yrs.

Rika

[TimT]

I have friends that are home improvement contractors. Both are doing well. One brings a portfolio of past projects to meetings with potential customers, He is building a website that will have his project portfolio available, and also will have photo galleries of ongoing work..

Making your work and skill set available on the web may be helpful.... To those 30 somethings who shop and live via the web..

Very few people plan to stay in houses more than 4/5 years

I have heard that before, not sure I by into it.. Given what a pain in the balls moving is, and the cost of moving, closing costs etc..

[Dave L]

I have purchased a roof, AC, furnace, some mudding and am in my 30's. I will tell you about the furnace.

Sales Guy 1. - obviously the contractor and probably came straight from the job. This guy seemed good told me what I needed but his down fall was his "quote" was written on the back of a business card. He also gave no information on what furnace or any specs and didnt explain why he had recommended what he did.

Sales Guy 2. As slick as they come, trying every trick in the book, spent more time on the "free gift" that I would get than the furnace. This guy I basically told that I wanted to buy a furnace and if I wanted a "Free" alarm clock I would go the F'n Walmart.

Sales Guy 3. Still a sales guy but someone with knowledge. He made some recomendation on what I needed and why, showed me some options, left brochures, a professionaly hand written quote and references.


I went with number 3. Number 1 was considered but I didnt feel I had enough info to make a good decsision. With the third guy I was able to look at specs, type the furnace model into google and just generally feel comfortable with the decision. From what I remember they wernt the cheapest but somewhere in the middle.

[Scuba Steve]

I could only hope to find a flooring contractor in San Antonio that would go over a quote like that. Seriously, it's freaking me out thinking about it because normally I do my own work but I know next to nothing about how to do this kind of work. Not all young people care solely about price. Honestly I'm more likely to go with someone in the middle of the road and whoever provides info that makes the most sense.

That + high price of failure = me finding someone else to do it.

[MotoSook]

Sales and convenience....

If you can sell yourself, then the next step is to make yourself available via e-mail or text. It takes me minutes to text someone or tap out an e-mail on my Blackberry, but I'd have to find time to place a call or return a call. I can text in the elevator or on the pooper..... I can't always take calls placed to my cell when I'm working, and I wont' run out of a meeting to return a call. When I'm done with the meeting I'm rushing to get stuff done before the next meeting or call or what ever. By the time I get back to thinking about something personal...it's 6 PM and it's too late to call back people who have regular business hours.

I wouldn't take it as a door being slammed in your face after the estimate. Just keep calling and leaving polite messages about how you understand they are busy but that you can be availble to them.

Of course if you didn't do a good sales job they're not going to return your calls. I've had contractors come with a portfolio and all the brochures and tech info. Those are the ones I think are serious about getting the job done right and without surprises.

Manage expectations...if you know it's going to take 5 days, but the client thinks it can be done in 2...explain to the client why 2 days is not enough for you or anyone else.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

30-somethings only care about cheap, they don't appreciate or care about quality, professionalism or the value of trade experience.

Residential owners are the worst - you should know this.

30 somethings are also tired of self-worshipping contractors thinking they deserve $400/hr just because they took some classes at the local tech school and think they can nail a couple 2x4's together.

30 somethings are similarly sick of hearing what a pain in the ass 'homeowners' are and how we are supposed to trust them to do right by us no matter what.

30 somethings don't appreciate being talked down to about the functioning of an electrical or mechanical subsystem of our homes. does anyone know everything? i don't think so.

30 somethings aren't all bad just as contractors aren't all bad. but many representatives of both sides have earned a pretty bad reputation for the rest.

[berettafan]

to clarify not referring to Milt just wanted to offer a different perspective.