pull back in response to stall warning?

[Porsche_monkey]

From todays paper. Shocking.

WASHINGTON — The co-pilot in a February airline crash that killed 50 people in upstate New York was paid a salary so low she was living with her parents in Seattle and commuting across the country to her job, according to testimony today.

One of the safety issues that has arisen in the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board's investigation is whether co-pilot Rebecca Shaw and Captain Marvin Renslow may have suffered from fatigue during the accident. Testimony in the three-day hearing, which began Tuesday, indicates Ms. Shaw and Mr. Renslow made several fundamental mistakes as Continental Connection Flight 3407 approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport in wintry weather the night of Feb. 12.

Airline officials acknowledged at the hearing that Ms. Shaw, 24, was paid at a rate of about $23 (U.S.) an hour and had a salary of $16,254, although she could have earned more if she worked extra hours. She previously had a second job working in a coffee shop.

The night before the accident, Ms. Shaw flew overnight as a passenger from Seattle, changing planes in Memphis, to report to work at Newark Liberty International Airport. She also complained about congestion and may have been suffering from a cold.

Roger Cox, NTSB's aviation safety operations group chairman, suggested while questioning officials for Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental, that Ms. Shaw was commuting because she couldn't afford to live in the New York metropolitan area.

Mary Finnegan, Colgan's vice president of administration, said the company permits pilots to live anywhere in the country they wish. She said the company also allows them to remove themselves from flight duty if they are fatigued.

“It is their responsibility to commute in and be fit for duty,” Ms. Finnegan said.

Mr. Renslow commuted to Newark from his home near Tampa, Fla. Colgan officials said their captains typically have salaries around $55,000 a year.

A transcript of the cockpit voice recorder released Tuesday by the board showed Mr. Renslow and Ms. Shaw engaging in chitchat about careers and her lack of experience flying in icy conditions during the plane's final minutes, even after they had noticed a buildup of ice on the windshield.

The Dash 8-Q400 Bombardier, a twin-engine turboprop, experienced an aerodynamic stall, rolling back and forth before plunging into a house below. All 49 people aboard and one on the ground were killed.

Colgan officials acknowledged in response to board members' questions that Mr. Renslow and Ms. Shaw weren't paying close attention to the plane's instruments and were surprised by a stall warning. Nor did they follow the airline's procedures for responding to a stall.

Further testimony and documents also showed that Mr. Renslow had failed several training tests before and after being hired by Colgan in 2005. He had been certified to fly the Dash-8 plane for about three months.

Paul Pryor, Colgan's head of pilot training, acknowledged that Mr. Renslow didn't have any hands-on training on the Dash 8's stick pusher — a key safety system that automatically kicks on in response to a stall — although he had received hands-on stick pusher training on a smaller plane that he previously flew.

[m21sniper]

The blood curdling scream on the part of the chick co pilot was a nice touch. Definitely what i'm looking for in a pilot.

Overriding the stick shaker despite previous hands on experience? Seems quite clear to me what happened.

Panic. By both of them. With a healthy dose of complacency and incompetence thrown in, just to be sure.

[TerryH]

$16K @ $23 per is only ~13.5 hrs per week. I would have sought more hours.

[Embraer]

Originally Posted by TerryH

$16K @ $23 per is only ~13.5 hrs per week. I would have sought more hours.

The only problem is that FAA regulations limit the amount of flight hours to 1000 per year. That's $23,000 a year before taxes. Most pilots are paid block in/block out (I'm not familiar with Colgans contract...if they even have one). All of the time you see pilots sitting in an airport, they're making almost nothing, akin to 1.50 an hour or something, as per diem.

A pilot might work 60 hours in a week, but they'll only be credited for 23.5 (or something along those lines)....actual flight time.

[cairns]

Such a pointless terrible tragedy.

Mary Finnegan should be dragged behind a truck. Such a gutless self serving remark- she knows exactly what their pilots and cabin staff go through and could care less about them or the customers.

This is what happens when everyone cries about ticket prices. Companies pay unqualified people poverty wages, give them no training, push them to the limits of exhaustion but everyone is happy because they only paid $99 to get from Akron to Chicago. And people like Mary Finnegan hide behind corporate doublespeak.

Sadly I don't think we're going to see any real changes come out of this.

[m21sniper]

$23k is not a poverty wage for a part time job. You can make the case they're undepaid, but come on...

As far as blaming the customers, wtf? No customers, no airlines, no pilots.

[Embraer]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

$23k is not a poverty wage for a part time job. You can make the case they're undepaid, but come on...

As far as blaming the customers, wtf? No customers, no airlines, no pilots.

It's not a part time job..especially if she was commuting from Seattle. This is one thing that the average passenger/armchair pilot just doesn't get.

[air-cool-me]

Originally Posted by TerryH

$16K @ $23 per is only ~13.5 hrs per week. I would have sought more hours.

I came to work last saturday for an easy trip at 940am.. 80 hours later at 4:15pm tuesday I came home for work. That tuesday I got up at 5:30am in a podunk town. Was at an airport or in an airplane from 5:55am till 4:15pm. Operated 5 flights and was compensated for only the 6:13h I was in the air. This was a "good day"

I was not payed if the plane was not rolling or flying.

its not a part time job... last month I spent 252 hours of the month at work.. i just didn't get compensated unless i was flying.(that was a light month.. had 335 hours last month.)

think about going to work for 4 days, living out of a suitcase for 4 days, at a different cheap hotel every night.. getting up at the crack of dawn...eating airport food.. working in a high vibration and high noise environment... for years...

M21sniper: the copilots sex has ZERO to do with this.... all the girls I fly with are top notch.. Its pretty obvious you have nothing to add to this conversation and know nothing about aviation. go away

[daepp]

I paid more to fly to NOLA in 1979 at the age of 16 than I did to fly to DC last month.

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by air-cool-me

M21sniper: the copilots sex has ZERO to do with this.... all the girls I fly with are top notch.. Its pretty obvious you have nothing to add to this conversation and know nothing about aviation. go away

You are being far too specific.

[cgarr]

Am I reading all this right? Your paid a piss poor wage so that's the reason not to perform. Sorry but I flew my bosses ass around the country for years for nothing. I was not worried about his ass but my own, that's all that mattered to me, what I made didn't matter I guess because it was nothing.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by air-cool-me

M21sniper: the copilots sex has ZERO to do with this.... all the girls I fly with are top notch.. Its pretty obvious you have nothing to add to this conversation and know nothing about aviation. go away

Blow me.

Aren't pilots supposed to be cool as cucumbers? Would you call someone that let out a hysterical scream cool, or "top notch?"
I sure as hell wouldn't. Perhaps you just have very low standards.

To any reasonable person, she was HARDLY top notch, she was -by her own words- totally unqualified, and they both panicked. That's "top notch?" Seriously, blah, blah, blah.

And hey, what's your plan Manfred? Crank up your wages so that all the customers take the train (or some other airline) instead, and you all get laid off?

You don't like piloting, you don't like the wages, go be a waitress instead. No one forces you to be a pilot, do they?

Originally Posted by Porsche_monkey

You are being far too specific.

Kiss him after he blows me.

And take off that stupid hat already.

Originally Posted by DAEpperson

I paid more to fly to NOLA in 1979 at the age of 16 than I did to fly to DC last month.

Legitimate question:

Why do you do it?

[widgeon13]

I don't think it had anything to do with pay or hours of work. No one climbs into an aircraft with a death wish. I blame this tragedy on the PIC. He falsified documents that would have most likely have eliminated him from the job. He failed two check rides prior to taking the job but did not disclose this according to news reports. He should have been focused on the aircraft during the approach and not shooting the shlt with the FO.

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

I know one thing, I wouldn't have been talking about the weather under those conditions, my focus would have been on the instruments and flying the aircraft.

It's fine and actually a good thing to discuss the weather situation with your fellow cockpit crew as it's happening as long as it pertains to your observation and interpretation of what's happening, or about to happen, and your plan to deal with it. Flying the airplane, for most very seasoned pilots, even in bad weather, is really a fairly simple and routine task.

I can speak for the majority of pilots who work for my airline when I say that they are VERY competent instrument pilots. The men and women I fly with are provided a high a level of automation and use it, but they can - and do - click off the autopilot and hand fly in conditions that would challenge ANY pilot - and they do it with utmost skill, precision, and calmness - leg after leg, day and night, in thunderstorm areas, ice conditions, heavy winds, and blowing snow (sometimes all of them combined). Likewise, the vast majority of pilots I have observed while sitting in other airline jumpseats have been just as impressive in their hand flying skills. Most do as I do and click off the autopilot somewhere near 10,000 feet on the descent and hand fly it in - especially when the weather is bad.

I honestly have only met a few (experienced) pilots in all my years in this business who I thought were less than excellent stick and rudder pilots. Yet there seems to be this idea among other pilots that the pilots of highly automated airplanes are somehow less skilled in the stick-and-rudder and instrument flying disciplines. My eighteen years in the airline business has shown me that this idea is almost totally false.

This crew was inexperienced however, and that fact, combined with the captain's obvious lack of talent in this endeavor (c'mon...FIVE failures?! Why was he still employed there anyway?) led to a senseless and totally preventable accident.

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

He should have been focused on the aircraft during the approach and not shooting the shlt with the FO.

Absolutely true. Non essential banter during a high workload period simply takes the crew's focus away from the job at hand (talking strategically about the weather though is not considered idle chit chat - it IS essential, but that's not what they were doing.)

[URY914]

The taxi driver taking you to the airport is paid more than the FO of the plane taking you to the next city. Screwed up value system.

[air-cool-me]

Dont get all butthurt. I apologise for singling you out.. after all

Of course, i'm not a pilot

making your grasp of the industry heavily shaded by mass media and really bad 80's movies.

I sure as hell wouldn't. Perhaps you just have very low standards.
That's "top notch?" Seriously, blah, blah, blah.

I never said she was top notch. I said all the women I fly with are.
I have not flown with her. In-fact she might be alive if she intervened on the Captians botched stall recovery.
Your inclusion of her sex was a thinly hidden blanket statement about all woman pilots. It is simply not true. She actually had more initial hours then most new-highers. In the CVR transcript it she was expressing that she was glad to experience Ice in copilots position before moving to the captains position. A seat where most pilots experience day to day operations in ice for there first season. A welcome humility to the "cool as a cucumber" guys who think they can handle everything and should be captain already.

You don't like piloting, you don't like the wages, go be a waitress instead. No one forces you to be a pilot, do they?

I LOVE piloting... that doesn't mean the pay is any better\wages any higher or the schedule any less brutal or that I have to be satisfied with the conditions.
The way the seniority and pay works in this industry you need to take the first job you can when you can(low hours low pay) if you want to beat the rat race to higher pay and better lifestyles.

Lower pay means we dont try as hard? nope.. but you lack the ability to attract the best talent and experience and retain the talent you do create. Flying with excellence breads excellence. I think this was a case of two duds that squeezed through the system and Fate being the hunter put them in the same place were higher skill was needed.

[Dottore]

It's simply wrong in my view to pay people who carry this kind of responsibility for the lives of their passengers so little. But I guess that's the free market at work.

I'd be interested to know how flight crew salaries actually impact ticket prices.

But I'd much rather pay a bit more for my flight to know that my pilot is getting a decent wage, and didn't have to live with his/her parents and fly across the country in order to get to work.

[rattlsnak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

please dont bring up tail icing. wasnt a factor. he got to slow, stalled it, did a wrong escape. poor basic airmanship. period.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

please dont bring up tail icing. wasnt a factor. he got to slow, stalled it, did a wrong escape. poor basic airmanship. period.

Wow. That is seriously bad flying.