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-   -   Police chase ends with a boot to the head... (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/474348-police-chase-ends-boot-head.html)

GH85Carrera 05-15-2009 07:05 PM
That gangbanger deserved a lot more pain. Unfortunately the law is screwed up on that point. Sniper, it is obvious that you have a real hatred of the police. You have admitted you could never be a cop. I could never be a cop either. I would have shot that gangbanger and I would be in jail. We have a vast difference of opinion on what is right in this situation. You have a right to your opinion even if it is totally screwed up.

That cop is a normal human. He was fully pumped up and chasing a man he KNEW cared nothing about anyone else. How much training does it take to totally suppress all emotions? I don't know and neither do you. That cop made a mistake in the eyes of the law. It was not a deadly mistake. Personally I think he should get a pat on the back and a hearty "job well done." That gangbanger should have been shot right in front of the cameras as an example. That is just my opinion. I could be wrong but I fell just as sure as you do that one of us is mistaken and it is not me.

Jeff Higgins 05-15-2009 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4665904)
I think you're wrong. It is the war on drugs. I saw a number of statistics on this in the past. The US has by far the highest percentage of the population incarcerated (in the world). More than China. More than Russia. And some extraordinary percentage of those incarcerated (upwards of 50%—and probably significantly higher) are there because of drug offenses. The three strikes policy exacerbates the situation, but it is the drug war that is keeping the wrong people in prison, while at the same time putting enormous pressure on judges and prosecutors to give lenient sentences to the real animals that should be behind bars (because there is no room for them in the system).
The last official figure I read estimated 75-80% of our prison population was in on "drug-related" offenses, and are considered "non-violent offenders". This in itself is criminal. Send them home, and make room for guys with really bad neck tattoos.

PatrickB 05-15-2009 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slodave (Post 4666402)
For the record, I'm playing "couch lawyer" and pissed off citizen taxpayer.

Patrick, I read you post and even though I analyzed the video over and over, with no real training, I see an officer kicking a suspect that was spread eagle on the ground.
As I mentioned earlier, it's what you DON'T see that is being discounted or ignored. A D.A. will never be able to prosecute the cop criminally for what happened. Many refuse to listen, but it's the officer's perceived threat that will determine whether ANY level of force was justified or not. Ask me how I know...


Quote:
Originally Posted by slodave (Post 4666402)
I also see a lot of unnecessary tax payer money being spent because of the kick. There are a number of experts that have commented on the video and they say it looks to be excessive force. The words "excessive force", is not what a taxpayer wants to hear.
Experts, or self proposed experts? It's interesting how many experts come out of the cracks to render their opinion based on the exact same information that you and I and 10 million other people saw on TV... Which, may I remind you, is not the complete story. Let the investigation begin, and all the statements come into play from all the people that were actually there!

What's quite upsetting to me Dave, is the fact that many people just automatically assume that this guy is entitled to some monetary judgement for use of force imposed on him. Mr. Rodriguez was much more in control of this situation than many will accept. He made the conscious decision to NOT pull over 30 minutes prior to this unfortunate situation. He was the one that escalated the situation by endangering the public with his ridiculous attempt to escape from the police. Don't hate the players, hate the game!

Quote:
Originally Posted by slodave (Post 4666402)
What I do know, is that everyone, including the police, need to be careful of their actions. Video is everywhere, capturing everything in today's world.

Now, did the suspect deserve that kick? Sure and a lot more too.
Deserve a kick, or lots more? NO!
Had this guy stopped and followed the lawful orders of a State Peace Officer, it's likely that it would have had a more peaceful conclusion.

Interesting how video's of combative/resistive suspects jumping up attempting to assault officers or escape after laying prone (spread eagle) for several seconds never seem to hit the media... Especially when the subject is high on PCP and has super human strength. I'm not inferring that Mr. Rodriguez was high, but erratic behavior demonstrated by him makes it a possibility. I've witnessed it and experienced that. Until you've been involved in attempting to take down someone in that situation, you clearly have NO idea how quickly something escalates that would seem so simple to the unknowing eye. Have you ever witnessed (4) 250+ pound officers unable to control and place (1) 180lb. man into handcuffs? Actually was a part of that one, and never saw it coming! What many will NEVER understand, is that a police officer's life is often on the line when any resistance or struggle happens. I don't wish to hear more BS about how he clearly "wasn't resisting." During a felony stop, the suspect is still very much a threat until placed into mechanical restraints and searched for weapons. Until you walk the beat and experience how quickly things turn to sheet when dealing with criminals, your "non-professional/non-law enforcement" opinion doesn't hold water. Have any of you personally witnessed multiple violent crimes in progress, or been the victim of a violent crime? I have.

slodave 05-15-2009 08:24 PM
Patrick:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/05/el-monte-officers-actions-and-tactics-questioned.html

And Patrick, it doesn't matter what the suspect did, even if he was sitting at a park bench, he still needs a good....

PatrickB 05-15-2009 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4666330)
This is not Nazi Germany.

If our own cops cannot follow the laws, they are not worth the paper they are written on, and i see no reason why i should follow them either.
Anarchy is the answer then?:confused:

Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4666330)
What's more, attempting to portray that OBVIOUS kick of frustration against a submissive and surrendering person laying prone as being in any way neccesary or defensive nature is complete and utter rubbish.
And your expertise as a law enforcement use of force expert is...??:confused:
Your comment is without basis, and complete nonsense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4666330)
That video shows an outright and blatant abuse of power, a felony assault and clear police brutality, plain and simple.

I hope the cop loses his job, his reputation, and goes to prison, because it's where he belongs. With all the other felons.
Are you a criminal prosecutor or criminal investigator Sniper? I'm GLAD I don't live in Philly! God help any one on trial in your town if you sit on the jury. You're ready to arrest, try, and convict someone based on watching 10 seconds of video of an event that transpired over 30 minutes that you didn't see? Guilty until proven innocent? Sounds pretty un-American to me! SmileWavy

PatrickB 05-15-2009 08:36 PM
interesting!

Geoffrey P. Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina, said that, while video may miss some things, it appears to show “that the officer lost control.”

The video MAY miss things...

David A. Klinger, a criminology professor at the University of Missouri and a former Los Angeles Police Department officer, said the nature of video, as a “two-dimensional representation,” leaves out a lot of context that could explain the officer's decision-making.

slodave 05-15-2009 08:41 PM
There is another video that shows more. It was not available before and I have not posted it.

Either way what I kerp saying is true. This incident can end up costing the taxpayer. Video is here to stay.

m21sniper 05-15-2009 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinP73 (Post 4666374)
Our laws prohibit his peers from serving on a jury. Now what, how do we handle him now?
Come now, don't be silly.

m21sniper 05-15-2009 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GH85Carrera (Post 4666519)
That gangbanger deserved a lot more pain. Unfortunately the law is screwed up on that point. Sniper, it is obvious that you have a real hatred of the police. You have admitted you could never be a cop.
I dont like bad cops. I would be a bad cop, so i am not one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GH85Carrera (Post 4666519)
I could never be a cop either. I would have shot that gangbanger and I would be in jail. We have a vast difference of opinion on what is right in this situation. You have a right to your opinion even if it is totally screwed up.
My opinion is in accordance with the law.

Yours is totally wrong in every legal sense of the word. You do understand that right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GH85Carrera (Post 4666519)
That cop is a normal human. He was fully pumped up and chasing a man he KNEW cared nothing about anyone else. How much training does it take to totally suppress all emotions? I don't know and neither do you. That cop made a mistake in the eyes of the law. It was not a deadly mistake. Personally I think he should get a pat on the back and a hearty "job well done." That gangbanger should have been shot right in front of the cameras as an example. That is just my opinion. I could be wrong but I fell just as sure as you do that one of us is mistaken and it is not me.
Irrelevant, all of it.

The law states that police must not subject SURRENDERING suspects to physical assault. And his dept's policy almost certainly prevents kicking/striking suspects in the head as well.

Mr Police man....Pfail.
You....Pfail.

m21sniper 05-15-2009 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickB (Post 4666611)
Anarchy is the answer then?:confused:
The rule of law is the answer.

Not cops acting as judge, jury, and in some cases executioner.

The cop was wrong. Period, stop, end of story. Wrong- that was felony assault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickB (Post 4666611)
And your expertise as a law enforcement use of force expert is...??:confused:
Father - cop. 1st repo partner- cop. Me- Formerly soldier, formerly subpeona agent, formerly private investigator, formerly bail enforcement agent, currently (ran over) repossessor.

Yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickB (Post 4666611)
Are you a criminal prosecutor or criminal investigator Sniper? I'm GLAD I don't live in Philly! God help any one on trial in your town if you sit on the jury. You're ready to arrest, try, and convict someone based on watching 10 seconds of video of an event that transpired over 30 minutes that you didn't see? Guilty until proven innocent? Sounds pretty un-American to me!
I know the law, you know the law too based on what dave says in the post after mine. So you damn well know better.

BTW, pot, kettle, black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickB (Post 4666635)
interesting!

Geoffrey P. Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina, said that, while video may miss some things, it appears to show “that the officer lost control.”

The video MAY miss things...

David A. Klinger, a criminology professor at the University of Missouri and a former Los Angeles Police Department officer, said the nature of video, as a “two-dimensional representation,” leaves out a lot of context that could explain the officer's decision-making.
Sounds like someone is trying to toe "the thin blue line."

I mean an ex cop and criminologist who no doubt still deals with cops every day would never leave a little ambiguity in his statement so his cop buddies won't disown him, right?

That was assault, plain as day. It was also almost certainly a violation of department policy, as cops are not supposed to hit suspects in the head in most (all?) municipalities.

You know that.

Bring it nazis, bring it. No way i will EVER accept police blatantly assaulting surrendering and non resisting citizens no matter how ugly or how many tatoos they have. Because if they can do it to them, they can do it to us, they can do it to me.

That cop was wrong, totally, and should be fired, prosecuted, and if convicted, sent to prison.

It wasn't even a good or tactically sound approach by the cop, who should have circled around the suspect in a wide arc and approached him from behind.

slodave 05-15-2009 09:49 PM
Sniper, Patrick is a correctional officer. He also has reason to be aggravated.

Patrick is a very nice guy. Also very big! And we're not talking fat. His fists are huge!

Heel n Toe 05-15-2009 10:11 PM
I see and understand both sides of this discussion... both sides have made valid points.

One thing that just occurred to me is... if a fleeing felon (or even just a fleeing graffitti artist) has seen enough videos like this of officers beating or kicking guys trying to give themselves up, it would seem like that could/would make it less likely that he would want to end a chase and get out of the vehicle and give himself up.

So it could end up indirectly causing a greater number of long, dangerous chases.

Sure, there are plenty of guys who won't give themselves up no matter what... they're gonna run until the vehicle is out of fuel or until it's running on the brake discs and drums... I'm referring to the guys who aren't raged out on drugs and/or alcohol... guys who still have some semblance of reason in them.

look 171 05-15-2009 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickB (Post 4665819)
+10!

What many don't understand, or can even begin to comprehend is the officer's perception of the immediate threat. It's so easy to pass judgement from the safety of an arm chair and reviewing the video over and over again. Is it fair for someone with no understanding of police tactics or never experiencing close hand to hand combat to even begin to comprehend what it is to have to make a life or death decision in a split second with your own life on the line? One perception I have (without having been on scene) is the clear disregard for human life evidenced by thought processes of an individual who decides to lead police on an extended pursuit reaching speeds of 80 mph on the WRONG SIDE of the street during the middle of the day. It's this type of criminal thinking that often leads to a suspect assaulting, or even killing anyone that gets in his way- law enforcement officers included. I wasn't there, but have a much better idea of this than many folks posting here. I have personal knowledge and many interactions with convicted felons from the same well armed gang as Mr. Rodriguez. They are known for being one of the more violent southern Hispanic street gangs in the San Gabriel Valley area. With that being said, until Mr. Rodriguez is donning the silver bracelets he is so accustomed to wearing, it's still game on. There are seconds leading up to his being on the ground that are not captured on video. Did he have the appearance of a concealed weapon on his person? Did he throw anything else while running?

Let's look at the specifics... One kick to the head, not multiple kicks. A single kick like that is often used as a distraction or stun technique. It was not meant to kill or injure. Why use that, instead of waiting for back up to arrive? After all, the officer did have his gun drawn... Because in theory, that kick to the head could have potentially saved several lives. Again, until the suspect is in mechanical restraints, and searched, he's still considered a threat. He could draw a weapon and attempt to attack officers. If Rodriguez reaches his hands to his body, the officer shoots him. Respect the perceived threat through the officer's eyes, not yours. The kick was completely effective. A kick to the head is easier to recover from than a bullet. He was placed into handcuffs with no injury to the officers, or the public, with the exception of a lump on his mellon.

At the end of the day, what could have potentially ended in tragedy, concluded with relatively little damage to personal property, and little injury. The very sad part is, a POS gangbanger may likely have just hit the lotto. I'll never understand the outpouring of public sympathy for a criminal engaged in very criminal acts. I'll bet that particular kick to his head pales in comparison to the fights he's been involved in with his gang rivals, and even his little homies... The irony is that kick to his head not only potentially saved his life, but will probably make him a millionaire... :mad:
Patrick,

I have to ask, what areas or cities of the San Gabriel Valley are these gang(s) in? My parents lives there, So Pasadens bordering Alhambra and its not too bad there at all. I will try to stay out of those areas or cities much as I can. I didn't think it was that bad in the SG valley.

Jeff

m21sniper 05-16-2009 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slodave (Post 4666710)
Sniper, Patrick is a correctional officer. He also has reason to be aggravated.
Dealing with convicted and imprisoned inmates is not the same as dealing with people on the street, and one STILL should not be kicking people in the head if they're laying spread eagle and not resisting. Period.

You.just.cannot.kick.non.resisting.suspects.in.the .head.ever.

And that was still a piss poor tactical approach, regardless. It was clearly a pissed off cop meting out some frustration/vengeance. Clearly. Plus he is a total moron on top of it. Kicking a guy in broad daylight in this day and age of video cameras in every phone...pure idiocy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slodave (Post 4666710)
Patrick is a very nice guy. Also very big! And we're not talking fat. His fists are huge!
Short of me being a convicted criminal in his prison i don't see how that has anything to do with me at all. BTW, the chick i'm going out with tommorow is an ex prison guard.

slodave 05-16-2009 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4666755)
Short of me being a convicted criminal in his prison i don't see how that has anything to do with me at all. BTW, the chick i'm going out with tommorow is an ex prison guard.
It has nothing to do with you. It's my thread and I can say what I want! :p

m21sniper 05-16-2009 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slodave (Post 4666757)
It has nothing to do with you. It's my thread and I can say what I want! :p
Heheh, ok. ;)

I do thank him for his service though. That aint a job i'd ever want or take. No matter the pay.

I'd go from guard to inmate in about the first hour of my first day on the job. Convicts i really do hate.

MMARSH 05-16-2009 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4666700)
.
Father - cop. 1st repo partner- cop. Me- Formerly soldier, formerly subpeona agent, formerly private investigator, formerly bail enforcement agent, currently (ran over) repossessor.
Not one of those things you listed would qualify you as an expert in Law Enforcement use of force.

PatrickB 05-17-2009 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by look 171 (Post 4666753)
Patrick,

I have to ask, what areas or cities of the San Gabriel Valley are these gang(s) in? My parents lives there, So Pasadens bordering Alhambra and its not too bad there at all. I will try to stay out of those areas or cities much as I can. I didn't think it was that bad in the SG valley.

Jeff
Google is your friend...
http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/ganglandexpress/page7.html

or

http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/ganglandexpress/index.html
SmileWavy

PatrickB 05-17-2009 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMARSH (Post 4667582)
Not one of those things you listed would qualify you as an expert in Law Enforcement use of force.
NO... But I bet he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once! :D

m21sniper 05-17-2009 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMARSH (Post 4667582)
Not one of those things you listed would qualify you as an expert in Law Enforcement use of force.
Don't have to be an expert to be a juror, do you?

Do you?

What's that sound?

Is it...crickets.....?

And i am not really sure i even agree with you. As a soldier we had pretty extensive use of force training for riot control and the like.
Proper use of force is also of extreme concern to anyone in bail enforcement, though we had far broader powers than the police for the suspects we were taking down. Still couldn't kick totally unarmed and non-resisting suspects in the head though.

Because the term for that is "assault."

But go ahead, make your rational case as to why that was a justifiable use of force.

The cop didn't even approach in a tactically sound fashion- he should have circled around behind to clear the line of fire for his fellow officers and to get into the suspects rear quarter.
The suspect was spread eagle, non resisting, and unarmed, and there is an extremely high chance that the cops dept. doesnt allow direct blows to the head unless absolutely neccesary in any case, as most dept's (if not all?) depts. have banned such blows for liability/safety purposes.

There was nothing sound at all about what the cop did. It was totally unsound tactically, almost certainly a violation of departmental use of force policy, and was obviously motivated by frustration and a want for pay back.

That cop was as wrong as the day is long. And so is anyone that wishes to defend him.


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