Question for you Music/Movie industry types re: royalties

[Dueller]

How does the industry track commercial use of intellectual property (music/movies). Apparently there are people who monitor and report to licensing labels when say you have a local musician perform and he performs copyrighted covers of other artists' songs at the wife's restaurant. And you end up getting a bill from the labels, or whatever. How do they monitor?

Licensing fees are apparently payed thru your cable service in commercial establishment for movies or music played thru that system.. But if you hire a live performer, what happens?

We're thinking about showing a movie played thru a DVD projector outside on the outdoor patio (otherwise known as "Whitetrash Alley.")

There is never a cover or admission charge...

Just curious.

[Rick Lee]

I thought as long as you're not doing it for commercial purposes, you don't have to pay any royalties.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I thought as long as you're not doing it for commercial purposes, you don't have to pay any royalties.

If you show a protected work for free in a commercial establishment then the business derives gain from the draw.

[Rick Lee]

Oh, I thought he was showing it on his home patio.

[HardDrive]

On the music side, I don't believe an artist needs to receive permission to perform another artists songs live. However, if someone records the performance and distributes it, then you get into royalty issues.

Do some research over at Harry Fox for more info. They are the main clearing house for this type of thing: http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp

Showing movies out on your patio is clear violation of copyright. Its a public performance, and your making money off the partrons. You could probably get away with it for quite a while, and a cease and desist letter is the likely response if you are caught. The city might take issue with you opening a 'theatre'.

[Oh Haha]

A buddy did the same thing last year during the summer months. He had no visits from anyone protesting or wanting royalties.


I would have to believe that a person would have to be advertising in the media and charging guests to draw the attention of royalty seekers.

Wouldn't it be the same if you invited friends over to watch a DVD in the house?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Oh Haha

.....
Wouldn't it be the same if you invited friends over to watch a DVD in the house?

No! Unless you charge your guests for food and beverages in which case you'd be in more trouble with the town running a bar/restaurant without a food/liquor license.

It's no different than hiring a band and not charging a cover/admission fee. You do it to attract patrons and keep them entertained. The longer they stay the more money they spend so the argument is you are benefiting from the performance/showing. You are using it to generate more income than you normally see without it.

[Oh Haha]

Ok, I'm confused:


Are you saying that I could be violating the law if I were to ask a couple of friends over tonight to watch "Lemans"? Not outside on the patio but IN my living room.

No charge. Heck, they don't need to bring anything.

You must be speaking about a commercial establishment.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Oh Haha

Ok, I'm confused:


Are you saying that I could be violating the law if I were to ask a couple of friends over tonight to watch "Lemans"? Not outside on the patio but IN my living room.

No

Originally Posted by Oh Haha

You must be speaking about a commercial establishment.

Correct.

Dueller's wife owns a restaurant. It's the restaurant patio he is referring to, not his home.

Still, copyright law can be fairly strict, check this out.

[Oh Haha]

Holy crap!!

good thing I can't stand football.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Oh Haha

Holy crap!!

good thing I can't stand football.

Not just the NFL. Remember Sony/BMG's root kit fiasco?

And their EULA?

[Gogar]

Jim,

This is my understanding of it, but I have never owned a restaurant or music club or anything.

Most establishments, even restaurants, are technically required to pay a yearly fee to Performing Rights Organizations (ASCAP, BMI) to even play music on speakers in the restaurant.

As you mentioned, I think some services like DMX or Muzak, etc. can pay the "blanket license' for you as part of your subscription; that way you play music during dinner, no problem.

Restaurants, bars, etc. who DO NOT have a subscription service that pays this "blanket license" must be responsible for paying the yearly fee.

the yearly fee that Cabarets or music clubs pay also covers them for artists on the stage playing "brown Eyed Girl", etc.

This blanket licence (I think) also works in 'Sports Bars", where there's TVs everywhere.

There was an issue for some time where Sports Bars would buy PPV fights and events and stuff and draw a big crowd, which led to kind of a crackdown on that kind of thing.

So, anyway, I don't think you would have much of a problem playing a movie on the patio, unless you charge money for it, or advertise it as a special event or something. If there's a TV on in the restaurant somewhere, it's the same premise.

To be conpletely legal? I think technically you would need to contact the publishing company of said movie and get a clearance, and pay a small fee. I know at a church I work at they have to get clearance for any video clips that play on the jumbotron. (yes, jumbotron.)

However, I think in your situation it might be better to beg for forgiveness in the absolutely miniscule chance that someone gets upset about it.

[Racerbvd]

OK this is something that our company does have some experience with. Gogar has covered it very well, but they take the size & number of seats into the formula too. They send people out to bars (yes, I'm not the only one who gets paid to hang out in bars) and see if anyone, who isn't on their list is playing any anything they can charge for. Well, these guys generally charge for seating cap, even if the music is only played on, a deck, they expect newbies to be scared and over pay. We have had clubs get huge bills, but then we have been able to get the "fine" drasticly reduced because of where & when the playing was..

Question, is "Whitetrash Alley" at your home or part of your wife's restaurant??

If you go with Gogar's

However, I think in your situation it might be better to beg for forgiveness in the absolutely miniscule chance that someone gets upset about it.

Come delete this thread & have everyone who posted delete theirs as well.
If you want to talk to somebody who has experience dealing with this, let me know & I'll hook you up..

[9dreizig]

What about the bill I get from Gogar everytime I sing a BHT song ?

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

What about the bill I get from Gogar everytime I sing a BHT song ?

He bills you??? He pays me not to sing it and act like I don't know him
Easy money

[T77911S]

who gets the money? the artist? is this the same for live music? what if the radio is playing in a bar?
if my band plays brown eyed girl, shoot me if we do, van morrison should get the royalties, but there is no way to know whatg song is being played.

[URY914]

From what little I know the artist (singer) get little or nothing. It is the writer that really is making the big bucks. Now the writer can sell his rights to the song, like when M. Jackson owned all the Beatles's songs.

If the singer didn't write it, he/she makes $ from album sales and concerts. The writer makes $ every time anyone sings or records it.

[VINMAN]

What happens with a cover band playing in a bar? Are they subject to a copyright infringement, since they get paid to sing another artist's songs?

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

What happens with a cover band playing in a bar? Are they subject to a copyright infringement, since they get paid to sing another artist's songs?

No, the bar pays a yearly fee to "performing rights organizations", such as BMI, or ASCAP.

These companies, in effect, "represent" all the artists and songwriters who are members. The companies monitor (as best they can), public performances of all copyrighted music, whether it is a public performance, (like a cover band), or a broadcast, (like playing DMX or Muzak in your restaurant.)

So, when T77911S's band plays "Mustang Sally", thoretically, ASCAP will apply a portion of all the money it has collected this year and distribute a little more to Mack Rice, who wrote the song.

Of course, there's not a zillion people working for ASCAP and BMI hanging out in every bar and restaurant in the world tracking public performances, so they use a lot of trends and ratings and statistics to arrive at how to distribute the money they have collected on behalf of all the musicians and songwriters out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCAP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_Music_Incorporated
http://www.ascap.com/about/

[T77911S]

mustang sally, hey, did you see our set list?