At a crossroads - any advice?

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 06:38 AM

So I'm at a rare point in life where I don't know which way to turn. I pride myself on being a decisive person, but I just can't decide which way to go. In many way it's a shades of gray sort of issue, there's no clear "right" answer.

So I've been out of school for a year now. Aerospace engineering BS, business management minor. Note that I'm not your typical college grad, I went back to school late in life and worked my way through with a wife and kids, graduating at 28. Prior background was in construction/management including managing a small lumberyard/hardware store. I've been in my current position for 1.5 years working as a project engineer (project manager). Always received overwhelmingly excellent reviews in regards to my performance, and I am the most junior PE in our large company by two pay grades. I try to be modest, but I believe I'm pretty good at what I do.

However, I've also encountered some fundamental issues that bother me related to the aerospace industry. There seems to be a practice of expecting employees to overperform with little/no reward from the company. It's a common practice for engineers to jump companies every 3 years or so because it's the only way they get raises or promotions. Personally I've been promised three promotions and one bonus, none of which have actually materialized. I'm a pretty black and white kind of guy and believe that you should do what you say and treat people with respect. This bothers me deeply, and not just because I feel I deserve a raise.

While I overall enjoy my job, I feel the time has come to start looking elsewhere. This is where my struggle lies. I think many of the issues that I disagree with at my company also exist at other aerospace companies. There's also a part of me that feels I should stay put, as my company will eventually step up. Of course, there's a very fine line between a loyal employee and a sucker. I also feel the draw of my former industry, there's certainly aspects of construction that I do miss. I've often considered trying to get a job as a project manager at a construction company, however that would greatly handicap me if I ever decided to return to aerospace. I do know the VP of a local commercial construction company, so I would likely have an "in".

Long winded, I know. In some ways it's cathardic to just put it out there, as my wife is the only other person I've discussed this with. I'm interested in the thoughts of others that have considered a career change, or simply felt that things weren't going as planned. This isn't a tomorrow sort of choice, there isn't a lot moving right now in regards to employment anyway. And before you say it, yes I'm happy to have a job right now.

911Rob · 911Rob's Garage

Look towards self employment in either of those industries. It will likely make you more satisfied. The "JOB" was only designed to satisfy one mans dream; the guy that owns the company.

Good luck Matt

MFAFF · 05-18-2009, 07:01 AM

Matt,

Are you interested in getting more money or getting more job satisfaction?
Being a construction industry PM you are the bottom of the pile in a professional team and add little of value (creative) to the process.. a manager at best, a post box at worse...

What you are able to do within your chosen field involves an element of creative thinking and input. Over time you may, if you are so inclined become the design driver for a project.. when that happens you know all the crap has been worth it...
Its a satisfaction that eludes the PM in every project.. always the groomsman... never the groom.. why because you are neither the real Client nor the real designer.

You might get the gold but you won't have the satisfaction....

Naturally this is from a very biased perspective where my experience of PM's is generally poor with one or two individuals proving there are exceptions to this rule..but of the ones I have worked with.. the rule it pretty accurate.

Jim Richards · 05-18-2009, 07:11 AM

Matt, I've been through a remarkably similar path. I shifted back to a more technical role (from project engineer to systems engineer), and a year or so later jumped to a different company. The issues I experienced with my original employer were similar to yours. I think the change was good, and I enjoyed the more technical work I was doing, especially since it was more big picture stuff. I could've stayed on the management track back then and been happy, too. Heck, I'm back in management now and here I'll stay. Good luck with your decision.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

However, I've also encountered some fundamental issues that bother me related to the aerospace industry. There seems to be a practice of expecting employees to overperform with little/no reward from the company. It's a common practice for engineers to jump companies every 3 years or so because it's the only way they get raises or promotions. Personally I've been promised three promotions and one bonus, none of which have actually materialized. I'm a pretty black and white kind of guy and believe that you should do what you say and treat people with respect. This bothers me deeply, and not just because I feel I deserve a raise.

I was with GE for 14 years and this was exactly the problem. You need to, as a minimum, post for positions and change jobs every 2 years, and get your salary increase as part of the switch. If you do not, you will be 'three percented' to death. This appears to be very normal in the engineering areas, since most engineers are born without a backbone. Scott Adams did a good job lampooning this in Dilbert, culminating in Dogbert selling strap on backbones to everyone at the company.

If you jump companies every 3 years, you need to make sure you get a sizable boost in salary, and that you are using the 401Ks and investing. No pension for you, not that many companies are offering pensions these days.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 07:18 AM

Rob, I can't argue that in the least. However, I'm in the situation of having to take care of my family as well. I do realize that without risk there will never be reward, but I have to be responsible about it as well. Ultimately I don't think I'll ever be 100% satisfied unless I am self employed, it's the world I grew up in as a child and my ultimate aspiration. Of course, wanting to be self employed and actually having a plan to do so are two totally different things, to be quite frank I don't know what direction I would turn. A former neighbor and friend is a very successful entrepreneur (rentals and light development), I should probably buy him a beer and get his input.

MFAFF, it's a bit of both, mixed with frustration in regards to the "system" that I work within. Having no real experience with the world of construction PM, it very well may not be anything like what I envision. With my current position everything goes through me, so I am responsible for everything from design to schedule and budget. I don't actually do the design work, but I do organize and direct it.

Porsche_monkey · 05-18-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Personally I've been promised three promotions and one bonus, none of which have actually materialized.

I feel the time has come to start looking elsewhere.

I've often considered trying to get a job as a project manager at a construction company, however that would greatly handicap me if I ever decided to return to aerospace. I do know the VP of a local commercial construction company, so I would likely have an "in".

The failure to follow through on promises is sufficient reason to move on. Not giving raises, or not paying bonuses is understandable. Promising, and then not delivering, is simply unacceptable. Don't be a stooge. Don't get 'played'.

Is there reason to believe that construction will be any better? Money aside, which would you prefer?

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red-beard

Scott Adams did a good job lampooning this in Dilbert, culminating in Dogbert selling strap on backbones to everyone at the company.

As an engineer, I of course have a Dilbert desktop calendar.

Interesting that it is evident in other industries as well.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche_monkey

Is there reason to believe that construction will be any better? Money aside, which would you prefer?

The grass is greener?

I have no reason to believe it is better, part of the attraction is likely due to my experience, it's an industry that I'm comfortable with.

In all honesty, Rob pretty well nailed it. My ultimate dream is to be self-employed. Doing what then, that is the question. Though in that arena I've always felt a draw to real estate, as I believe my construction and business knowledge puts me ahead of 99% of the industry.

rattlsnak · rattlsnak's Garage

Matt, I'm sure you've heard the cliche, 'the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.' I'm not sure construction is a good place to be right now either. My brother is a pm in Phoenix and after jumping around from contract to contract he is now jobless again. Everybody has cut back big time on new projects, etc. Of course with all the layoffs in aerospace/aviation staying where you are would be a wise decision. When it turns around, and it will, you will be already vested. Many companies promise bonuses, promotions etc, but if the company, or industry for that matter, is struggling, then you're simply not going to get what they cant afford to give you.

P.S. I'm in Wichita for the night. Are you near the airport?

rammstein · 05-18-2009, 07:50 AM

In my experience to date, a bonus promised on an employment contract is nothign more than a lie to get you in the door. Next time I accept a job, I will ask that instead of a bonus, they spread the money pro-rata over the year. If they have a problem, that would be an indication to me that they aren't planning to pay me anyhow.

As for not getting raises/etc, I just got my first one, albeit a small one, by basically saying if I didn't get it I'd leave and go be a waiter and make more money (which is true when you get into the hours I work here). You need to make threats and be prepared to follow through. I plan to do it again in January.

It sucks, but I think the days of doing a great job and getting recognized for it financially are a thing of our parents' generation. Everyone here sings my praises daily, but amazingly nobody stepped up to the plate when it came to my pittance of a salary. Until I made a threat that would seriously cramp them. Be professional about it, but be tough about it.

MFAFF · 05-18-2009, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

.... I don't actually do the design work, but I do organize and direct it.

Therein lies your basic issue....
You are 'managing a process'... are you adding value? Are your ideas being used to increase the product's value/ usefulness etc?

If it does not then dissatisfaction will result..if it is then you will derive more satsifaction.

Being self employed is only partially about money, its more about freddom to do as you see best..so if you can work in a company that allows you to do as you feel is best then you get some of the benfits of being self employed (job freedom) with the benefits of being in a larger company that can tackle bigger projects. Sure you 'may' not make as much cash, however you will be doing things that you would not be able to if you were self employed.

At the moment the construction industry is 'consolidating' which offers opportunities to set up on your own.. if you are prepared to take a risk and create something that nobody else is doing.. if it a 'me-too' service then you are taking a risk and asking people to employ an unknown at a time when theri own risks are very high, whch is a brave call to make.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

P.S. I'm in Wichita for the night. Are you near the airport?

No, I'm on the East side, but it's only about a 15 minute drive. If you want to meet up shoot me a PM, I can check with the boss to see if we have anything going on tonight.

ramm, sadly I believe you may be right. That way of thinking is difficult for me to reconcile, as I firmly believe that you pay employees what they are WORTH to you. This practice of only paying as little as you can get away with is stupid and shortsighted. Companies simply don't consider the substantial cost associated with finding and training a new employee, particularly one with a specialized skill-set.

MFAFF, my involvement does lead to putting my own "stamp" on design work. The designers take care of the minute details. My job can be fairly mundane at times, but that is the case with most. If I felt that I was being treated with respect, I probably wouldn't be posting this. The lack of integrity of my company has been the catalyst for questioning my direction.

Jim Richards · 05-18-2009, 08:12 AM

Matt, employees are "resources." Companies want the best resources for least expenditure. It's cold, but you need to put yourself in management's shoes.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Matt, employees are "resources." Companies want the best resources for least expenditure. It's cold, but you need to put yourself in management's shoes.

Very true. But what happens when you spend time and money developing a resource, then lose it? You spend time and money finding a new replacement resource, then time and money to develop the new resource. Assuming that the new resource can be developed to a similar skill level as the old resource, eventually you've spent a lot of time and money to return to square one. In the meantime, your overall productivity has dropped while the new resource is being developed, leaving your project behind schedule and over budget.

If you do the math, it's pretty easy to justify paying your employee what they're worth, i.e. what your competitor offered them to leave you.

Jim Richards · 05-18-2009, 08:32 AM

That's a management judgement call. Some times they get it right, sometimes not. I saw management blow it back in the mid-'90's at a company I worked at then. We hit a tough patch and our management went beyond our typical multiple rounds of layoffs, and started instituting pay cuts across the board. Oh boy...less pay for more work performed.

We were told that we should just suck it up...we were lucky to have a job. Over the next year, they had huge attrition in their mid-to-senior-level engineering staff. It hurt their ability to execute programs. Life's a beotch.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 08:37 AM

In my industry, where there is already a shortage of qualified engineers, it's typically a bad call. Fortunately HR makes the decisions that engineering has to abide to, so they never realize the negative impact it has on on the company.

Jim Richards · 05-18-2009, 08:40 AM

Ask your boss if they would fire one HR person and give you the previously promised raises/bonuses from the savings to the company. It's a win for (almost) everybody!

onewhippedpuppy · 05-18-2009, 08:42 AM

Too bad my boss has no "real" power. They can only recommend actions to HR. HR has the ultimate power to approve/deny. Ultimately we all apparently work for HR. Just a shocker that we're not treated well, isn't it?

einreb · 05-18-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

In my industry, where there is already a shortage of qualified engineers, it's typically a bad call. Fortunately HR makes the decisions that engineering has to abide to, so they never realize the negative impact it has on on the company.

You may find that working at a smaller company would allow you to stand out more as a performer and not just feel like a wheel in a cog.

I worked for 8 years as a consulting mechanical engineer (P.E.) for two different small firms. I left to do 'self employed' software type work. I still don't know what I want to do 'long term'.