Need Advice...HELP ME PLEASE

[NICKG]

Originally Posted by tabs

Several months ago I sold a Luger with capture papers through Gun Broker. The buyer has relisted the Luger, however he has DOCTORED the capture papers to include another pistol, which he also has for sale. Another GB user has informed me of this "fraud" and would like me to report him to GB. SHOULD I DO IT?

I would say that you should at least call and make sure that you are not on the hook for it...CYA

[tabs]

There were 2 copies of the Certificate with the gun...if you examine the photo with the papers and Luger holster you can see the version in my photo.

[Dueller]

you did the right thing, tabby.

[tabs]

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished..????

Before I ever wrote this Thread, I almost dropped the dime and was ready to submit the form..but I decided to get a second opinion before I did so.

I decided to let a higher pay grade authority make the decision... thePPOT Board

[Joeaksa]

No way around it, drop the dime on the jerk.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by tabs

There were 2 copies of the Certificate with the gun...if you examine the photo with the papers and Luger holster you can see the version in my photo.

Ah, that makes sense. Good on you for calling this guy out.

[tabs]

I am merely the agent of the PPOT Board...

[RPKESQ]

All though I agree the right thing to do is to expose the fraud, it leads me to question why anybody would give credence to a second hand capture document, as they are so easily faked well enough to fool any expert without chemical analysis.

Like so very much in the collectible world everything from casino chips, coins, firearms, documents, ancient artifacts and art is faked and has been faked for (in some cases) thousands of years.

High grade American and Browning shotguns, Colt pistols, Winchester rifles, "SS" Lugers, capture firearms and the easiest of all, "dug-up" relic firearms are probably 75% to 90% fake.

Anybody who thinks these are hard to fake is only deluding themselves. I recently saw a entire collection of High-grade American Fox shotguns (9 pieces) all were fake. The proud owner paid over $150,000 for plain grades altered to look like high grades. Real value for the collection, about $10 -$15 K.

The process is simple, buy a low grade Fox SxS, research the Fox company archives for build records, pick a missing serial number, install high grade wood ($1500), have the action shaped and engraved in suitable manner ($1000), refinish barrels and metal work ($1500-$2000), result a Fox that will sell for $15K to $20K easily. Pretty good profit margine.

I have seen pieces that have been in Museum collections for 75 to 100 years that were fake. I have personally handled 4 different examples of the Remington-Rand 1911 serial number 1.

[tabs]

The value of the Capture Papers adds about 10% to the value. It makes it a nice package. It does not alter the historical validity of the gun, holster and MATCHING CLIP. But it is a shame he messed with a nice historical package for so liittle. In actuality it does not make the Luger worth more money it make that little FN worth more money. He has to be hoping that someone will buy both guns as a package for premium money.

What is ironic is that another GB user saw the fakery and pointed it out to me, so those guys who collect Lugers know what is happening and that guys rep is allready being shot (no pun intended) without my help.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

High grade American and Browning shotguns, Colt pistols, Winchester rifles, "SS" Lugers, capture firearms and the easiest of all, "dug-up" relic firearms are probably 75% to 90% fake.
.

Sometimes with those shotguns the original intent was not to defraud, but to upgrade for the owners own enjoyment..However several owners down the road it becomes a "rare" item.

Also we come to the restoration of firearms that with several owners down the road suddenly have become mint examples of a desirable firearm.

Then we come to those who just plain out and out wish to deceive, enhance for profit.

Ironically there is a well known English Whitworth Rifle that I have run across that someone decided to mark with CSA...thus making it a Confederate used firearm...thinking it would make it more valuable. However it was worth more money just in the configuration it was before someone tried to jack it up. Now you still have a rare rifle but it now has baggage that has detracted from its real value as a rarity among Whitworths as well as a CSA rifle.


Tom De Haas who was a well known Colt SA collector and restorer during the 1950's made up a dozen or so Walker Colts as there were no replicas being made at the time. He didn't do it to deceive, however today those dozen or so Walkers have entered into the collectible market, some as being real. However people who have been around the block a few times with that particular model of Colt can spot a DeHaas gun from across the parking lot. Much to the chagrin of the collector who just thought he scored an item.

The known De Haas Walkers have a considerable value just because he made them. However that value is about a 10% of a Real Walkers value.

I in general don't buy guns based on serial number, capture papers, special markings, original boxes etc. I buy the gun for what the gun is, will not pay much of a premium for an extra ( a box only). In general I don't deal with super expensive nor rare guns..Over the years some raritys or nice things have come my way.

Some of you can testify that if there is a doubt on something I will make you aware of that doubt and risk you are taking before you put your money down. Also the money involved was commensurate with the risk being taken..BTW I am wondering how that item worked out...

Several years ago I bought a magnificent Winchester High wall reworked by Sedgley in the 1930's into a 22 Hornet. The quality of the work was every bit as good as G&H. I paid a premium for the gun (the price was inline for a custom rifle), yet when I received the gun it had been reworked since Sedgley into this magnificient rifle. I had a buyer, who would have bought the gun however I told him it was most likely a Sedgley that had been reworked. He declined the purchase. I eventually sold the gun through an after auction sale at what for me was the deepest loss yet. The buyer got a beautiful gun and deal for his money.

However the money that I got from that sale was used to pick up a nice Browning Shotgun that I have good margin on which will/should make up that loss.

So you might say I buy the best quality I can afford and I describe what I have for what it is good bad or indifferent...in other words I don't buy junk nor do I try and pass off junk on others. Sometimes it means I lose money. My reputation is worth more to me than the $$$ profit..

However over the years I have aqquired a bit of knowlege about those Spoons and the price structure thereof which enables me to pick things up at reasonable prices. There is always something waiting around the corner. I would say that my biggest problem comes with condition rather than fraud.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by tabs

Several months ago I sold a Luger with capture papers through Gun Broker. The buyer has relisted the Luger, however he has DOCTORED the capture papers to include another pistol, which he also has for sale. Another GB user has informed me of this "fraud" and would like me to report him to GB. SHOULD I DO IT?

Yes...I mean, you'd blow the whistle on a counterfeited VIN car, wouldn't you?

[looneybin]

the signatures don't even match.
Look at the 'J' in John and the 'F' and 'B' in Frisbre

[tabs]

One other thing that RPKesq failed to mention is that every item tells a story when examined. One just has to read that story, sometimes very carefully.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Yes...I mean, you'd blow the whistle on a counterfeited VIN car, wouldn't you?

You mean Schmidt...his rep in my eyes has been shot..even though his work was excellent. I don't know how much I would have advertised it?? But if asked about him I would not lie, I would tell what I knew.

As an example there is an Auctioneer that I have been burned more than once by..I have gotten several very good things from him as well. But I will and have told everyone I know in the business about my displeasure with him. So is that an answer for you?

The only reason I never told him to fk off, is there might come a day when he has something I want. In general I pass on his auctions... His name is Garner in Ohio btw.

With schmidt I don't know if he was trying to sell the car as an "S" and get premium $$$? His deception SEEMED to be more of trying to make something seem something it wasn't.. for his own ego?

In the end he was only fooling himself as his ego was being built on peoples false assumptions, which he fully knew about. One can not have real pride in something if you know it is not real..it will always be what it is no matter what you say or do to convince someone differently.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by looneybin

the signatures don't even match.
Look at the 'J' in John and the 'F' and 'B' in Frisbre

The problem with the Certificcate is not with the signatures or information..It was the addition of information on the documents. In paticular the addition of the FN pistol and serial numbers. That information was not there when I sent the gun off to him. He added that information. The rest was as I received it.

What he has done is destroyed the value of the orginal documents both historically and monetarily ..the gun is still the gun and has the same value.

[tabs]

This is from Gun Broker: http://www.gunbroker.com/support/supportissueview.asp?id=182411

I received this in my e-mail from a GB user, via GB mail. Upon reviewing my picture files it does seem that my buyer has changed (DOCTORED) the documentation that I provided him with to help sell another gun that he has.



"not to long ago you sold a luger with capture papers i was looking at
lugers gunbroker the guy who bought it has it on he changed the capture
papers and added a second pistol thats fraud here is the auction number
131264651 he should be reported thankyou"



6/12/2009 1:03:23 PM
GBSupport1015
We are not showing an item matching this description as being sold by you.



6/12/2009 6:11:42 PM
Ted Bryla
After MULTIPLE tries at selling the item on your site it was sold off campus. Your USERS have brought this matter to my attention, and to protect MY REPUTATION with YOUR USERS I have been forced to bring this matter to you. You can do what you like with the information, HOWEVER YOUR REPUTATION is now at stake as well.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by tabs

I needed the moral support to assuage any guilt that I might have of being a RAT...which might be coming from his direction.

However once I received that e-mail stating his fraud my hand was forced...I had no other choich but to act, to protect my own reputation.

Remember this little missive...well it certainily has come into play...

Now tell me I don't anticipate...

[blk911]

If you bought that gun and found out someone had forged or doctored the papers, and someone had the ability to save you from being duped, wouldn't you want them to blow the whistle? Not really any question here.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by blk911

If you bought that gun and found out someone had forged or doctored the papers, and someone had the ability to save you from being duped, wouldn't you want them to blow the whistle? Not really any question here.

The answer is an unequivocal yes...

I have told multiple lookers at the house for sale across the street from me to run from that house.. It was a buy back by the builder for construction defect..

The house next to me had a sale drop out of escrow partially because of my comments...it had been sold for 238K and was eventually sold for 210K. I told the new owners the score as well.

[Tobra]

Shame someone would do that with a very nice weapon, though I suppose the payday is bigger the finer the merchandise. Do you go to jail for doing something like that?