Tour de Lance '09

[Highlander179]

That's just more fuel for Lance. Bring It! I hope he wins 7 more.

I especially hope he wins the 100th Anniversary coming up, but its quite a reach.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by T77911S

i dont think he is saying that. but they have singled lance out. of course more euros have been booted, look at the ratio of US to euros. but i will have to agree that i think the french hate to see a non french win, especially an american, perhaps more when lance first started winning. look at how many french teams have been let in under the wild card. they should have let that us team in(cant think of the name) years ago but opted for french teams that were not as good, that us team ended up folding, perhaps becasue they did not get in and their sponsors backed out.

what i dont get is that they accuse LA of doping because he has won the tour so much, but they do not take into account that he trains SPECIFICALLY for the tour and he does not win that much outside of the tour. if they are basing his doping on how much he wins, why hasnt someone accused eddie merckx of doping? he won all year long. no one has ever been able to maintain that kind of condition all year long.

if i were lance, i would offer to let an official spend 24/7 with me, he can even watch as i take a dump if that will prove that i am clean.

i have read that they will not take anything that has been opened, can you blame them.

You must realized most of what you read in the newspapers is designed for the audience. The viewpoint that the French are out to get Lance is groundless. The TDF has grown because of Lance and they know and appreciate it. Anti-French slurs appeal to a certain type of Americans, but those that spend a lot of time there know very well how much Americans are loved and accepted in France. That does not mean the French are in lockstep with our every act. But it does mean they do not judge a country by it's politicians only. Much could be learned by this viewpoint.

Since it is a French race, I see nothing outrageously wrong with them allowing more French teams than others. This is commonly done in all countries, the French have not a lock on helping the home team. You should see the crap the Indy 500 pulled on foreign teams!

And the French officials have never formally accused Lance of illegal drugs. Some journalist have and some of those are French, but not French race officials. BTW, the drug testing labs are actually Swiss run. The bulldog way the investigations for illegal drugs in cycling have gone in the last 10 years is astounding and will be what saves this race.

I have watched the TDF 5 times on the ground (they are often within a mile or two of my house) and I have never witnessed any hate towards Americans or Lance in those events. I'm sure some must exist, but it is certainly not common or tolerated.

[teenerted1]

actually they watch the guys with past problems closest.

i think the top three of the day and overall are automatically tested everyday and a couple of randoms. if you are tested it can be an offhanded way to feel that you might be thought of a favorite to win.

Merckx wasnt tested in his day cause they didnt have the kinds of tests/problems they do now. but you cant tell me it was a clean sport then either.

i'll wait till after this weekend to make my predictions.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by teenerted1

actually they watch the guys with past problems closest.

i think the top three of the day and overall are automatically tested everyday and a couple of randoms. if you are tested it can be an offhanded way to feel that you might be thought of a favorite to win.

Lance has never tested positive yet because he is American he is under the microscope. Been that way for years, and will continue until he kicks their a$$ again and again. Only way to stop him is if he gets injured and then that may very well happen when someone on the ground (or another bike) takes him out.

Joe A

[JavaBrewer]

So who is the leader of the Astana team in this year's TdF? From reading Alberto Contador's wiki page I can't believe he didn't bail on Bruyneel/Astana after they picked up Lance. He's got to be thinking of destroying LA on the mtns this year. What happens to LA once he falls out of the top 10? What happens if he defies the odds and somehow is able to keep up with the younger guys? This will be very interesting.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Lance has never tested positive
Joe A

Yes but what do you believe/suspect?

I won't go so far to say LA IS doping but admittedly I'm having a real hard time believing he is totally clean given his long track record of utterly destroying the competition year in/out. As I have stated in other cycling threads I think most of the field is doping in some manner, as are many of the athletes in all pro sports. That Lance can do it clean...hummm...perhaps he's just smarter than the average peloton bear...

[JavaBrewer]

Didn't Greg LeMond come out in the press implying that LA is doping? I recall reading a VeloNews article where Greg described how after he got dropped in an early TdF stage his masseuse said "You look pale. You need vitamins" and proceeded to inject Greg with "vitamins". Greg felt stronger the next day and by the next mtn stage was stomping Fignon's guts out on a big climb.

Pot, meet kettle.

[ski wagen]

Originally Posted by dmoolenaar

Yes but what do you believe/suspect?

I won't go so far to say LA IS doping but admittedly I'm having a real hard time believing he is totally clean given his long track record of utterly destroying the competition year in/out. As I have stated in other cycling threads I think most of the field is doping in some manner, as are many of the athletes in all pro sports. That Lance can do it clean...hummm...perhaps he's just smarter than the average peloton bear...

Is it doping if you're so ahead of the curve on the substances being used that they aren't on the banned list yet and therefore aren't tested for? Lance has always been "legal" but that doesn't necessarily mean he's not benefitting from modern chemistry. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to believe he's just a genetic freak, but I raced with Tyler Hamilton in college, and, having known him, if a guy like that succumbed to doping, then anyone can (and pretty much has to in order to be competitive in the pro peleton). They've been doping throughout the history of the sport -- used to be that amphetamines were the performance enhancer of choice.

[Tobra]

I think Mr Armstrong's cancer allowed him to remake his body into a more ideal one for cycling. I bet some stuff they done in the course of his therapy would have violated some of the doping.

Still wearing the wrong color shirt, tied for second. Surprised me there are so many Americans in the upper echelon

[VincentVega]

Didn't Greg LeMond come out in the press implying that LA is doping?

LeMond hates Lance. I think it's a jealousy thing, just my opinion. His thoughts = grain of salt.

First Lance get hassled because he's American. Then it's because it's because he came back after being on his death bed with cancer. Now he's too old. Bring it.

I dont care if it's purely marketing, after reading the LA books I bought in. Go Lance!

[MFAFF]

Originally Posted by Chris Martin

LeMond hates Lance. I think it's a jealousy thing, just my opinion. His thoughts = grain of salt.

First Lance get hassled because he's American. Then it's because it's because he came back after being on his death bed with cancer. Now he's too old. Bring it.

I dont care if it's purely marketing, after reading the LA books I bought in. Go Lance!

Oh dear...

Greg does have a chip on his shoulder about Lance because he has won more Tours than Greg....but from talking to him he is more astounded that LA has maintained his form over so many years....this does confuse many, both pundits and medics. (Big Mig was so often seen trouncing everyone that his dominance was not questionned, plus it was a different era...)

The easy conclusion is that his form is medially enhanced, but there is no proof.

As for LA being targetted because he is 'American'.. is..sorry Joe, bollocks.
He is being targetted because he is Lance Armstrong, so successful, and dominating in this era of 'cleaner' cycling.

He gets tested more often during the Tour, first three stage finishers, first three in GC and random are tested everyday....so LA is usually in that pool...

He has a medical history that does illustrate something out of the ordinary in his condition...and its far easier to suppose is enhancement than physiology. I hope he does win and that he is not stitched up...I don't believe he is doping.. but others' bias..on both sides of the water is likely to cloud the view.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by MFAFF

Oh dear...

Greg does have a chip on his shoulder about Lance because he has won more Tours than Greg....but from talking to him he is more astounded that LA has maintained his form over so many years....this does confuse many, both pundits and medics. (Big Mig was so often seen trouncing everyone that his dominance was not questionned, plus it was a different era...)

The easy conclusion is that his form is medially enhanced, but there is no proof.

As for LA being targetted because he is 'American'.. is..sorry Joe, bollocks.
He is being targetted because he is Lance Armstrong, so successful, and dominating in this era of 'cleaner' cycling.

He gets tested more often during the Tour, first three stage finishers, first three in GC and random are tested everyday....so LA is usually in that pool...

He has a medical history that does illustrate something out of the ordinary in his condition...and its far easier to suppose is enhancement than physiology. I hope he does win and that he is not stitched up...I don't believe he is doping.. but others' bias..on both sides of the water is likely to cloud the view.

Then what living creature can be critical of LA if one needs at least 7 Tour wins to critique? Armstrong, Woods, Beckham, Bryant, Ruth, Marilyn Monroe ; for all their great achievements, are/were merely human, damn talented humans for sure, but not gods.

Sherwood

Jealousy is an easy accusation.

[dd74]

Lance hides it better (the doping) than the others racers.

Millions of $$$ is invested in his name - he is a brand. He, in fact, is Trek's brand. They need him to win to keep selling $10,000 Trek Livestrong Madone race bikes to fat lawyers and investment bankers who "want to be like Lance."

As for LeMond - his yap dropped him from Trek because he (LeMond) badmouthed Armstrong and his alleged doping.

Doesn't matter though: LeMond owns a huge percentage of SRAM who aside from Shimano and Campagnolo, are the only heavy hitters in bike components. In short, LeMond is himself making millions because SRAM is so widely used now.

W/o a doubt, the entire peloton is doping. EPO, Cera, nicotine, Vicodin, hell, even Drain-O can be found in these guys. They're more polluted than a possum.

Some feel it's a good thing in pro cycling since it seems the human body has outlived its natural usefulness, leaving the drugs, durability and the execution of smart racing as the main components of pro cycling.

I mean, really, can anyone here spin a 53-15 gear uphill for 20 clicks at a sustained 90 RPM and 12-15 mph? I wouldn't doubt the majority of us would have a coronary trying; For the pro rider, this is where the drugs come into play; they supposedly "protect" the cyclist by tricking the body into riding faster - sort of like "chipping" a car's computer.

I like Danica Patrick's take on doping - which has now supposedly spilled over into auto racing for endurance and strength: She says, "Is it wrong if everyone does it?" (sic)

On a somewhat related note - a poll was conducted among MLB fans, asking what their biggest baseball-related complaint was. Many said ticket prices; few said doping.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I think Mr Armstrong's cancer allowed him to remake his body into a more ideal one for cycling. I bet some stuff they done in the course of his therapy would have violated some of the doping.

A very valid theory. However, no one knows the answer with any certainty.

Originally Posted by Tobra

Still wearing the wrong color shirt, tied for second. Surprised me there are so many Americans in the upper echelon

I like to think "tied for first."

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I think Mr Armstrong's cancer allowed him to remake his body into a more ideal one for cycling. I bet some stuff they done in the course of his therapy would have violated some of the doping.

Still wearing the wrong color shirt, tied for second. Surprised me there are so many Americans in the upper echelon

He'll get yellow tomrrow once they get into the hills. I remember reading about those American "kids" beign gifited jonior riders in the late 90s and they were the bunch to watch fot in the up coming years. I too was surprise about so many Americans in the div. 1 tour teams and that they are not only in American based teams. I haven't really kept up with the sport in terms of who's who in the past couple of years.

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by T77911S

if they are basing his doping on how much he wins, why hasnt someone accused eddie merckx of doping? he won all year long. no one has ever been able to maintain that kind of condition all year long.

if i were lance, i would offer to let an official spend 24/7 with me, he can even watch as i take a dump if that will prove that i am clean.

Merckx admitted a few years ago that even he was guilty of having used doping in his days.

On this level, they all use something, trick is to update tactics, so doping officials don't catch up.
Having an official live with you all year round is not really feasible.

[MFAFF]

Originally Posted by dd74

I mean, really, can anyone here spin a 53-15 gear uphill for 20 clicks at a sustained 90 RPM and 12-15 mph? I wouldn't doubt the majority of us would have a coronary trying; For the pro rider, this is where the drugs come into play; they supposedly "protect" the cyclist by tricking the body into riding faster - sort of like "chipping" a car's computer.

BTDT....it is not beyond undoped human endurance.. the Mont Ventoux is a challenge.. but to a 'reasonably' fit amateur its is not beyond comprehension.

The issue is not that the peleton is enitrely clean.. I think there is evidence that doping is widespread, it is how do you clear your name from the starting position that 'everyone' is doing it'...so you must be.

That is the accusation that is being thrown. Its the everyone is guilty, prove your innocence approach, its a shame for those who are clean and a cover up for those who are fraudulent and mis representing their performance.


Sherwood,

There is a difference in being critical because as a TdF winner you are surprised at how a person can dominate for so long and being critical because as an on-looker you 'know' that they are all doing it' and so LA must be as well.

GL may be a mouthy twit, prone to inserting both feet into his mouth, but he knows whether or not he needed medical help to win his TdFs....and his view on LA's achievements are therefore perhaps founded on a level of knowledge that escapes us...

[Zef]

Wake up guys...We're in 2009...TDF=doping.

[Joeaksa]

MFAFF,

If he is not being targeted, then why is are members of the french govt saying that he is being targeted?

They just admitted it in the press.

[MFAFF]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

MFAFF,

If he is not being targeted, then why is are members of the french govt saying that he is being targeted?

They just admitted it in the press.

Joe,

You are right he being targetted.. but I don't think its because he is American...its because he is a non-French multi tour winner who has come back from cancer and has never been close to showing a positive doping test...

When there have been winners of the TdF who have tested positive and loads of simialr era competitors are doing it the instant verdict is he's a cheal as well.. just a cleverer one...

I think any non French winner, especailyl having beaten the French recently would be targetted as much...so I would not say its because he is American....mind you that possibly does not help...but its not the prime cause.