Fastest gun ever

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

The overwhelming majority of real world gun fights involve 2 guys facing off at about 10 feet or less.

Any of these speed shooters would be EXTREMELY dangerous in any such realistic gunfight.

Especially if the have their magic holsters and guns and their opponents act like non-firing predictable targets.

I'll stick with Coopers concepts for handgun CQB. Proven in real combat, not games.

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

The overwhelming majority of real world gun fights involve 2 guys facing off at about 10 feet or less.

Any of these speed shooters would be EXTREMELY dangerous in any such realistic gunfight.

Without disagreeing with RPKESQ and Jeff, I also agree with Sniper. The speed and accuracy that those guys display is enormous (especially Jerry Miculek!).
They could shoot me in under a second, I'm sure. (even if I had a gun...)

[m21sniper]

Munden can shoot thrown quarters out of mid-air.

I don't think moving man sized targets would prevent much of a challenge to the guy.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Munden can shoot thrown quarters out of mid-air.

I don't think moving man sized targets would prevent much of a challenge to the guy.

who threw the quarters?

I'm sure he threw em himself, in which case it's not about aiming at all, but practicing until
A you throw exactly the same each time you throw em
B getting your hand to shoot exactly the same direction each time
C bringing A+ B together with at the exact same time.

Not about aiming, at all. all about muscle memory

[m21sniper]

OK, let's see any of you guys shoot quarters out of the air with a handgun.

To imply munden could not blast a moving man-sized target to smithereens at typical gun fight ranges is really quite silly.

Seriously...

[svandamme]

i'm not saying it's easy, i'm just saying it's not about aiming, it's a trick, like they do in the circus.. or David Copperfield, surely you don't believe he walked through the Chinese Wall now do ya?

[m21sniper]

It's not a trick, it's a technique, it's called "trapping", and snipers are taught the technique as well. You can either "trap" or "track" your target. (I suspect that "trap shooting" get's it's name because that's the technique involved, but i'm not really into any shotgun sports, so i cannot say for sure).

Trapping involves aiming at a point in space, and firing at said point so that your bullet and the target intersect at the same point in time.

Tracking involves aiming just ahead of your target as it moves, swinging your weapon along as the target moves, and firing when you're ready. I find tracking to be much more difficult, but that's just my opinion.

At any rate, it's not a trick.

There is very little question in my mind that Munden could easily trap a fellas' noggin' at a typical gunfight range if the target were moving full speed laterally.

This guy probably expends more rounds in one day than 99% of us expend in a year.

[svandamme]

if it's not a trick, then why do all coinshooters throw their own coins.
IF they are that good, it shouldn't matter who throws the coin
(assuming the coin is thrown decently, not by a complete halfwit)

[dhoward]

Not only is Jerry one of the fastest revolver shooters around, but he's a hell of nice guy. He worked over my model 64 PPC gun at the 1993 Masters, after I had a catastophic failure with my 1911. Spent a couple of hours at least. Riley Gilmore took one of his then-prototype Speed Leader composite holters and reworked it for a slab-sided wheelgun.
Jerry will kick your ass in a gunfight. Was one of the best around on the mover at the Bianchi cup.
No question.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by svandamme

if it's not a trick, then why do all coinshooters throw their own coins.
IF they are that good, it shouldn't matter who throws the coin
(assuming the coin is thrown decently, not by a complete halfwit)

I really don't think all of them do, but i would counter and say that throwing it yourself makes it even harder since your body is in motion, and you have to shut all that motion down, reacquire your sights, and then make your shot.

If someone else throws it you can entirely focus on your draw. Either way, i cannot shoot quarters out of the air, and i doubt anyone else on this forum can either.

Clearly what they do is highly specialized shooting, however that does not mean they cannot shoot straight and fast for real.

It would be akin to saying a boxer would be a bad street fighter because he only fights with rules. Of course this is ridiculous.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Especially if the have their magic holsters and guns and their opponents act like non-firing predictable targets.

I'll stick with Coopers concepts for handgun CQB. Proven in real combat, not games.

1) Cooper was the founding President of the IPSC. His later issues with that organization were based on the "gamers" of the equipment rules, leading to the "race gun" trend of which you speak. As far as I have read, of course. Perhaps he told you differently?

2) USPSA rules specifically forbid "magic holsters". Please read the rulebook. Miculek won 3 USPSA national revolver championships. If USPSA rules aren't sufficiently relevant to CQB for you, read on...

3) Miculek is a 2-time IPDA world champion in Enhanced Service Revolver. IPDA rules are specific about the modifications permitted to equipment in ESR. "Magic" guns are not permitted. Ditto holsters. Again, read the rules.

[emcon5]

I also recall him shooting thrown dimes, and even asprin.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

If someone else throws it you can entirely focus on your draw. Either way, i cannot shoot quarters out of the air, and i doubt anyone else on this forum can either.

I don't think it is a "trick", implying sleight of hand/misdirection, but of course throwing it yourself makes it easier.

The obvious reason is if the shooter throws the target himself, he only has to deal with motion on one axis, elevation, and he knows pretty much the path it is going to take. Any lateral motion will be minimal.

If someone else throws the target (unless they are directly below or behind the shooter), there is lateral motion as well as vertical.

I still can't do it.

[m21sniper]

The movement you have to make to throw it complicates the actual shooting part though. Either way, as you, i cannot do it either.

And yeah, i've seen these dudes shoot aspirin out of the sky too. Crazy.

I would not mess with any of these dudes, but would gladly share a foxhole with one.

[legion]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

(I suspect that "trap shooting" get's it's name because that's the technique involved, but i'm not really into any shotgun sports, so i cannot say for sure).

Trap Shooting is called such because when it was originally done (and still is sometimes), they had a bird in a cage (trap) that they opened and the shooters attempted to hit the fleeing bird.

I suspect that "trapping" gets its name from trap shooting, as trap shooting has been around (over 100 years) much longer than formalized sniper training (was first done in WWI).

[afterburn 549]

still thinkin here
6" of movement Draw shoot holster ( not counting any other action ) in 2/100 a sec....!!
Faster then the shutter speed of a good camera !!
In 1 sec he would cover 12 inches at that rate ?
600 feet in 60 sec ?
=8.8 mile in 1 sec =528 miles an hour of hands speed ..not counting any other action ...
Do I have this right ?
Don't flame me too hard, just got out of surgery

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

1) Cooper was the founding President of the IPSC. His later issues with that organization were based on the "gamers" of the equipment rules, leading to the "race gun" trend of which you speak. As far as I have read, of course. Perhaps he told you differently?

Of course he founded IPSC. But when he saw what it turned into he backed out for the most part.

2) USPSA rules specifically forbid "magic holsters". Please read the rulebook. Miculek won 3 USPSA national revolver championships. If USPSA rules aren't sufficiently relevant to CQB for you, read on...

Yes, I know the rules, magic holsters are allowed in some games not all of them. Stop trying to apply the same criticism I make to all games.

3) Miculek is a 2-time IPDA world champion in Enhanced Service Revolver. IPDA rules are specific about the modifications permitted to equipment in ESR. "Magic" guns are not permitted. Ditto holsters. Again, read the rules.

Again, you lose sight of the reality. Being highly skilled in any "game" is a great skill. No question. Not taking anything away from their accomplishments in that "game".

But real world is quite a bit different.

Light levels
Sound levels
Starting points
Starting signals,
Cover
Concealment
Incomming rounds, possible from multiple directions
Recoil
Drawing from a concealment holster
Emotions
Priorities
Legal issues
Friendlies
Wounds
Fatigue
Surprise
Ambush
Illness
Impairment from others
Limited ammunition, not in competition rigs
Unsafe environment
Weather
Retreat routes

It goes on and on. The simplest skill they have (shooting accuracy in a non threatening situation) is just scratching the surface of real life. Witness the fact that shooters of far less ability have successfully engaged in CQB and survived all without the skill to shoot quarters in the air. So just what skill is most important?

Shooting ability, fast draw, or the rest?

[m21sniper]

"A single well aimed shot is the most dangerous thing on the battlefield."
~Carlos N. Hathcock II, Silent warrior (slight paraphrase)

In battlefield terms, IMO who lives and dies on the battlefield is as much a matter of random dumb luck as anything else.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

"A single well aimed shot is the most dangerous thing on the battlefield."
~Carlos N. Hathcock II, Silent warrior (slight paraphrase)

In battlefield terms, IMO who lives and dies on the battlefield is as much a matter of random dumb luck as anything else.

Right, from cover and concealment at longer than "games" range, with a sniper rifle. I agree, now what does that have to do with the two individuals we were discussing here?

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Again, you lose sight of the reality. Being highly skilled in any "game" is a great skill. No question. Not taking anything away from their accomplishments in that "game".

But real world is quite a bit different.

Light levels
Sound levels
Starting points
Starting signals,
Cover
Concealment
Incomming rounds, possible from multiple directions
Recoil
Drawing from a concealment holster
Emotions
Priorities
Legal issues
Friendlies
Wounds
Fatigue
Surprise
Ambush
Illness
Impairment from others
Limited ammunition, not in competition rigs
Unsafe environment
Weather
Retreat routes

You seem to discount the fact that the fundamentals of marksmanship under pressure, which these guys clearly have, helps in every circumstance you just listed. Granted, the pressure of performing in front of an audience, or TV cameras, or against the clock, or simply trying to outshoot your friends is different than when someone is shooting at you, but it is better than nothing.

It goes on and on. The simplest skill they have (shooting accuracy in a non threatening situation) is just scratching the surface of real life. Witness the fact that shooters of far less ability have successfully engaged in CQB and survived all without the skill to shoot quarters in the air. So just what skill is most important?

Shooting ability, fast draw, or the rest?

Mindset is most important. If you trained with the late Col. Cooper, you know that.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by emcon5

You seem to discount the fact that the fundamentals of marksmanship under pressure, which these guys clearly have, helps in every circumstance you just listed. Granted, the pressure of performing in front of an audience, or TV cameras, or against the clock, or simply trying to outshoot your friends is different than when someone is shooting at you, but it is better than nothing.

Mindset is most important. If you trained with the late Col. Cooper, you know that.

The fundamentals of markmanship can be successfully taught without games. And I believe taught better than with games. You nailed it with "but it is better than nothing.".

And what have I posted would indicate I feel about mindset differently? If you would re-read what I have posted, you would see I did point that out. How do you think one could handle all of the variables I listed without a proper mind set. Mindset, as the Cooper pointed out allowed you to focus on the important items, which may or may not be the shot. If you understood what Cooper was teaching, you would know that.

Sorry, no denergration of the shooting skills these two have demostrated, but real CQB (not just military) is far different than any game and requires far more than game optimized shooting skills.