Then you lose the single biggest advantage to the lever gun - the ability to keep topping it off without taking it out of action. With a pocket (or two) full of ammo, you can stuff a couple of more in the loading gate at any lull in activities, without taking your eyes off of the threat, purely by feel.

That was a consideration and I'm looking for a bolt action that has a drop down magazine, like a CZ.

You still can't top it off as you go. This is the single biggest disadvantage to the detachable magazine - when it's empty, you must remove it and replace it with a loaded one. When they are all empty, you are reduced to weilding a club. It takes a great deal of time to reload the magazines before one can be replaced in the rifle. And if you are moving while you are emptying them, you need to go back and find them - unless you have the presence of mind to stash them in your pockets. Then, how many can you carry unless you have a belt or vest designed for such?

I think too many people confuse military weapons for civilian weapons. Situations where one will require them are vastly different. In the military, you will normally have all the gear - like the proper clothing for carrying several extra magazines, and your fellow soldiers to provide cover if you empty your rifle and/or magazines.

In a civilian SHTF scenario, you will likely have none of that. You will be on your own. A reliable lever gun, with several pockets full of ammo, will be far more useful. You can keep it "full" while on the move; it is essentially self-contained with nothing else to missplace or lose along the way. The only thing you leave behind is empty shells.

I do have other gear to choose from ;). But for arguement sake, how much ammo can you easily stash in your pockets before it becomes cumbersome? Anymore so than fishing out a 30 round mag from a side bag or chest rig? In a SHTF situ I would guess that a well prep'd gunner will have several loaded mags ready and dropping a few empty ones in the heat of battle is not a major concern.

What's in you bug out bag? ;)

Really I am not dogging the lever gun, but I kinda like the semi-auto with 30 rounds or even a drum if need be. If by the time I run out of loaded mags things are pretty bad. Probably worst off if I had had a lever gun while trying to load 300+ rounds...min that a SHTF needs in loaded 30 rd mags :D

Still is a 5.56 round at a disadvantage in urban combat when the enemy has a larger caliber? I say urban because the 5.56 lacks punch compared to a 7.62 and it's likely to be the case in civil unrest. One would want more penetrating punch no?

So back to the 7.62. But not in an AK?

How do the 70 grain .223 bullets compare in weight to .30 cal?

Why not both?

I have rifles in most of the "common" calibers, just in case in need to forage ammo.

.22LR
5.56 Nato
7.62x39
30-06
7.62x51

What is the problem...I said skip the Romanians..The Bulgarians, Russian, Chinese and Hungarians are better. The Romanians just have a rep for being not so good. As in cheap shtye.

The Arsenals are copies of the Bulgarian AK's. They use the same tooling. The only comment is that the Milled Receiver whether it is Chink, Russkie or Bulgarian is BETTER than Stamped>. It is stiffer and doesn't flex.

If i'm gonna spend $700.00 i'll just spend $800.00 and buy an AR.

I honestly just don't like AK style sights at all.

I feel ya bro.

Mini-14's are great rifles too.

Try a Mini-30.

http://kcw-usa.com/SKS-AK/GunPics/RugerMini30.JPG

I have all the gear. :)

I have 8x 30rd mags with 20rds each in them. I do not forsee myself running out of ammo in this lifetime with that many loaded mags....but Jeff's observations do have merit. The ability to quickly top off without having to drop the mag as you do during a tactical reload is quite handy.

You can do this with a shotgun too. If i was going to go the tube fed route, i'd get a 12 gauge semi as opposed to a center-fire lever action, but that's just me.

PS: My tac vest will hold 8x30rd mags and 10x 20rd mags. That's 440rd's, plus the mag in the weapon...

7.62x39 is probably not any better a penetrating round than M855 military semi-armor piercing ball ammo, which grows on trees.

Supposedly it will penetrate an engine block as long as the range is greater than about 50 meters. Inside that range, and the high velocity just causes it to grenade on impact....or so i hear. I have never actually shot an engine block at any range with M855 or any 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds.

If you want good penetration, a good 12 gauge semi firing .50cal 3" magnum sabot slugs would probably be hard to beat.

:D
If you are considering the AR platform and/or a .308 bolt action, you might consider an AR in .308. Pretty nice compromise IMO, and plenty of quality versions out there (from mild to wild).

I so wish someone would make an AR in .220 swift. That would be a neat-o toy.

I don't need another AR. ..well maybe a couple more barrels for larger caliber, but then a solid AK with cheap ammo would satisfy the need for more punch.

I am considering a .308AR just because.

Tabs - the conclusion was the result of your post but a general though based on what I read here and on other forums. I'll look for a milled receiver example that's imported and see if it will satisfy the role as a all around beater with punch.

Snipe - the reviews for a mini-30 aren't very favorable. Twice the cost of an AK, harder to fine mags and not as reliable as an AK. I admit I like the idea of a mini-30 but it doesn't sound like a winner.

So are all BUL, CHN and RUS made with milled still recivers?

Anything wrong with this? I assume it has a milled reciever:

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AKAGUNUF.aspx

and why are Saigas cheaper?

That definitely has a stamped receiver.

Ok so what are some milled receiver types?

Don't they sell stripped milled receivers?

Not really...

I'm a huge fan of the old Swift. I've owned a rifle of one description or another in that caliber for over 30 years. The one downside to it is that it absolutely will not survive any sort of rapid fire or, for that matter, even any sort of sustained fire. It builds barrel heat very, very quickly, and then begins to erode the throat at an exceedingly rapid rate. While certainly not nearly as bad as its reputation, that reputation is not without some foundation.

My current Swift is built on a Ruger #1 action. It wears a 28" Lilja stainless barrel, 1:12" twist. I like the single shot approach to the Swift, as it reminds me to slow down. A shot every few minutes is about as hard as you want to push one of these. They simply will not tolerate any sort of sustained fire. In an autoloader, I would venture to guess a guy could ruin a barrel with one 20 round magazine, if he tried to empty that mag as quickly as possible. Not a good marriage of cartridge/weapon.

Do they fetch that much? Must be a collectors thing. I didn't realize they had that kind of value. Never heard of reliability problems with them, but then again i'm not exactly a student of them either.

How about an M1A( M-14)? Pricey, but damn nice.

Well i guess that's why no one makes one. Shame, the idea sounded good on paper.

Google is your friend

http://www.firinglineoklahoma.com/akreceivers.html

Thanks James. I'll do some more research, but back to the AR vs AK. The hillbillies appear to be winning because of better construction although not great...

...here's a hillbilly I just built tonight. Got tired of the off the shelf crap and figured I build one with the parts I wanted...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252642625.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252642634.jpg


Maybe the only way I will like Eskimos is if I build one :)

Very nice. What bbl is that?

Here's some go-big-or-go-home hillbilly 7.62/.308 pron for your consideration. :D

HK417:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252644976.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252644996.jpg

Nice! I will probably build a .308/7.62..maybe the next one.

But the barrel is a White Oak 12.5" SPR that I'm putting on a pistol lower. Can't SBR here.

Looks great man. I love the forearm, who makes it?

Snipe - the handguard is a JP Enterprise tube with their top rail added. VTAC designed and manufactured the tube for JP as I understand it. I like it because it is simple and light and you can add rails to it in 2", 4" or as long as the tube on top. It's less costly than some of the good free float railed handguards available and just looks better. No special tools to install, just a barrel wrench. JP instruction says loctite, but it's not necessary. Cheapest place to buy is at MidwayUSA if you're considering one $145 for the tube And barrel nuts (it uses a two nut system) and $65 for the top rail iirc.

G-3/HK-91 the AC Cobra of shooters, I shot cases of ammo through that sucker, never had a problem. .308 NATO excellent big bore round and has the legs for a good mid range distance shot, and the KE left over for stopping power. Had to sell mine due to the Assault Weapon ban. My final bugout kit will have a Barrett .416, HK USP-LEM and a Mossberg 12GA toss in some spare rounds and a chest rig for carrying the party favors. Still trying to figger out the optimal zombie round/shooter, I am thinking the old HK-91 for the EOW scenario.
eric

I like the hogue overmolded rubber furniture personally, yours is the only "tactical" handguard i've seen that i like.

It's certainly hard to go wrong with an HK, and sticking with a std. NATO chambering is probably a good idea for any EOW scenario, so you're good there too.

Candidate for the ugliest 5.56 rifle on earth:

http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/u...at-Carbine.jpg
Benelli MR-1 Carbine

It sure as hell isn't cheap either. The price i saw was from $1300.00 and up.

Ya...not pretty. But then neither are AKs.


What do you guys have to say about SA vz rifles?

http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/vz-58-rifles/sa-vz-58-hi-cap-sporter/

It's a milled steel receiver, but not really an AK. My FFL had a couple of them the last time I stopped in, but I had no ideal what they were.

My room mate has a vz. I hate that thing with a passion. Doesn't seem that accurate to me and it is not friendly to your shoulder. It works fine but I just don't like it. Shoot it before you buy. Oh and centerfire has them cheap.

http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/files/...z58_002_01.jpg
Well you were certainly right about one thing....it's ugly. ;)

Why not just buy a cheap $350-400.00 AK and be done with it? That flexing receiver issue is a total non-issue at the kinds of real world engagement ranges anyone in a city is likely to face in an EOW scenario.

Have you considered an M-1A (M-14)? Or is that too pricey for you?

http://www.ultimak.com/images/M1AM8Prototype.jpg

A couple other solid options are the FN FAL and CETME type weapons.
http://hornscustomrifles.com/pic/6-2005/00-1000-016.jpg
A (pricey) legend

http://www.pof-usa.com/gallery/cetmegal2.JPG
I just saw a CETME for about $700.00 used, in perfect shape. This is a pretty well thought military grade weapon, made in Spain. I think you can accesorize them pretty well too. They're based on the german WWII STG-45 design.

If i for some reason didn't want an AR or MINI-14, a CETME is the route i'd go, i think. (But only because civvie M-1A's are so ridiculously overpriced, and FAL's aren't cheap either).

All the rifles i just named are all time greats. I'd pick any of them over an AK of any kind. They're all 7.62x51mm NATO too.

EDIT: Edited to correct some info on the CETME.

Well doesn't look like a whole lot of advantages to the AK over the AR...take away the larger caliber and it's just clunky gun. As an engineer I like my stuff less clunky :)


Snipe - you've given me the right path. I wanted a 308 bolt action to added to the collection, and I want something a little more punchy than the AR. I was a little reluctant to buy a DPMS 308 due to some comments I read about reliability, but I'm contemplation just going ahead and building one. Building one will let me select and inspect the parts so it should help with reliability concerns.

Then again, DS Arms is not to far from me and they have an AUS FAL for about $1200 with new receivers. The piston design may be nicer to have in the FAL than the DI gas system. I'd probably end up at the same place price wise.

Why not build an AK then? Well, I'm not sold on an AK. Even some SA vz owners think it's an improvement over the AKs they own. Shrug.

I was shooting one of these last night. What a "blast." :)

http://hotspotairsoft.com/catalog/images/marushinm1.jpg

I just ordered a Sadlak scope mount and Nikon Monarch 2.5x10 for my Springfield Armory M1A. I'm planning on using it for elk season this year.

If you keep yours eyes open and are patient you can snag Century CETME's for ~500 pretty consistently. That's a lot of stopping power for the $$$.

I'm looking for a Marlin Camp .45,

I allready have some 1911 mags to fill it.

Plus http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252992739.jpg

sorry for the cell pic.

Wood is good!

I do have an ugly black rifle receiver, but right now it's a paperweight.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252992965.jpg



I'm not this old, but I'm almost this crotchity

And I don't need to ask "what ammo for 1/7 twist?":rolleyes: