Doctors Leavng Medicine for Another Career

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

This will probably end up in the dungeon, but here goes.

CNN article about docs leaving healthcare due to rising expenses and frustration, flat and falling reimbursement. This is definitely not good. I know plenty of Ob/gyns who are not delivering babies anymore already.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/14/news/economy/health_care_doctors_quitting/index.htm?postversion=2009091404

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

The most common complaints I hear are (1) cost of education/training and (2) cost of malpractice insurance.

I actually seriously looked into medical school but was put off by the economics of it. I would not have broken even financially until I was in my 50s (and that's assuming no nationalization of healthcare). I imagine it's worse today (more expensive, takes longer to recoup investment and more risky with respect to potential nationalization).

livi · 09-14-2009, 05:25 AM

Something is seriously wrong when education doesn´t pay off.

berettafan · 09-14-2009, 05:25 AM

now is the time to get tort reform front and center on the national agenda!!!

berettafan · 09-14-2009, 05:31 AM

livi education stopped paying off 50+ years ago. and it's value is declining even further as we are dragged, kicking and screaming, into this new world order. when everyone has something it is no longer valuable. and not only do many, many americans have the opportunity to get 'education' so now do many, many, many, many 3rd world inhabitants.

this could well be the straw that breaks Dr. Camels back. sure intelligent and proud Americans will scoff at the idea of an entire decade of schooling and 6 figure tuition bills just to earn $100k/yr but untold millions of 'ferners' from lesser countries will have no problem accepting those terms.

jyl · jyl's Garage

Interesting that the complaints cited in the article were from primary care doctors - GP, pediatricians, OB/GYNs - and few/none from specialists.

My friends who are GPs are pinched, while my friends who are specialists seem to be doing well. Oh, and my ER doc friends are doing ok too.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 09-14-2009, 05:58 AM

We should leave the system as is.

s_morrison57 · 09-14-2009, 06:05 AM

I'm the Doctor of Love and the girls won't let me go anywhere.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by berettafan

livi education stopped paying off 50+ years ago...

Completely true. A college education these days is what a high school diploma used to be - it represents about the same level of knowledge, ability, skill, etc. A person NEEDS a college degree these days (with its associated cost of tens of thousands of dollars) just to be seriously considered as manager of a shoe store. It's no longer a case of people getting college educations because they know it will "pay off", it's a case of them getting college educations because without one, you'll be working a job standing at a cash register, or waiting tables, or installing Cable TV, or selling used cars. Or (more likely in today's economy) you won't be working at all.

This whole situation is a direct reflection of what a complete failure the pedantic educational system in America is - both primary and secondary.

cmccuist · 09-14-2009, 06:16 AM

Let the government take it over. They'll fix all those problems.

We're dancing all over the line and are going to get this thread moved to PARF!

My daughter just graduated from medical school (she's finishing up her residency) and has a lot to say about it. She absolutely doesn't want the government involved as she sees first-hand what they've done to distribution of services and reimbursement. But she loves what she's doing (pediatrics) and is going to earn a nice living. If you're in it to make money, there are other professions that are more money for less stress.

cmccuist · 09-14-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Completely true. A college education these days is what a high school diploma used to be - it represents about the same level of knowledge, ability, skill, etc. A person NEEDS a college degree these days (with its associated cost of tens of thousands of dollars) just to be seriously considered as manager of a shoe store. It's no longer a case of people getting college educations because they know it will "pay off", it's a case of them getting college educations because without one, you'll be working a job standing at a cash register, or waiting tables, or installing Cable TV, or selling used cars. Or (more likely in today's economy) you won't be working at all.

This whole situation is a direct reflection of what a complete failure the pedantic educational system in America is - both primary and secondary.

DAmn, you just described my brother's life. He got a degree in economics from UC Davis (pretty good school!) and ended up managing a paint store for 10-15 years. He hated that. Then, through some friends, he got a foot in the door to becoming a plumber! He loves that. Takes as long to learn that craft as it does to get a college degree.

Maybe we should go back to emphasizing trade schools over college.

look 171 · 09-14-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist

DAmn, you just described my brother's life. He got a degree in economics from UC Davis (pretty good school!) and ended up managing a paint store for 10-15 years. He hated that. Then, through some friends, he got a foot in the door to becoming a plumber! He loves that. Takes as long to learn that craft as it does to get a college degree.

Maybe we should go back to emphasizing trade schools over college.

I teach trade, Woodshop actuallty, and at one time Architecture in my local high school part time. I am also a general contractor. Tell you what, most teachers and students think trades people are low pay idiots that can't get real paying jobs. I had a young English teacher from my school, new UC Santa Barbara grad, called me construction boy when I got out my noise diesel truck and suggested some BS about teaching. I, of course smiled, and locked my truck with my lowely truck key, manually of course. That how most people think of the "Trades guy". I could tell you a thousand other stories but that's another thread for another day.

My buddy was a doctor and had quit 6 years ago and decided to buy a 2 coffee shops in Orange County(Socal) and live life. He was always working. Go to the hospital at 6:00am and go the hospital again at 5:00 and stay until 6-7 pm sometimes. It was killing him. He's now happy, but don't make nearly as much. He just turned 50 and has a lot of good years left to play.

KaptKaos · 09-14-2009, 09:15 AM

The "supply" of MDs is already constrained. This is partly by design so that medical schools can charge the exorbitant fees that they charge, but also to help ensure that the MDs can pay back their loans.

We need more MDs than we can produce. When home grown MDs leave the profession, where will we get replacements? (Hint: ever call Dell tech support?)

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist

DAmn, you just described my brother's life. He got a degree in economics from UC Davis (pretty good school!) and ended up managing a paint store for 10-15 years. He hated that. Then, through some friends, he got a foot in the door to becoming a plumber! He loves that. Takes as long to learn that craft as it does to get a college degree.

Maybe we should go back to emphasizing trade schools over college.

Absolutely!

One of the reasons we're in the hole we're in right now is that we (through over-emphasis of college, because there's so much MONEY in it) have allowed the trades to become irrelevant and looked down upon in this country. As such, what has happened to manufacturing? It's gone. "Outsourced".

One thing that I really liked about my particular college program in architecture was that it was not a "typical" elitist-mentality program. It involved a lot of cutting and building stuff out of wood and metal and concrete and whatever else down in the shop, in addition to the more "intellectual" aspects of the curriculum. It tried to keep us grounded in reality that what we were learning was about BUILDING things and understanding how to make physical stuff out of materials.

If we're ever going to capture back our manufacturing in this country (which I believe is the key to recapturing our industrial might and our economic clout), we need to stop brainwashing our youth into thinking that building, constructing and producing things is somehow "beneath them". Completely wrong. I've known some awfully smart and articulate individuals who were carpenters and sheet metal workers. By contrast, some of the biggest idiots I've ever known were ones working in offices holding pieces of paper saying they were "educated".

I absolutely agree that we should be teaching trades and encouraging people to learn them in this country today, not just telling everyone that they can be a "solutions consultant" if they just sign here and keep writing us $10,000 checks every semester.

cmccuist · 09-14-2009, 09:52 AM

The trades and craft workers of today are challenged mentally as well as physically. I mean look at mechanics. Microprocessors everywhere. Electronics everywhere. Back in the day, a car had about 5 electric motors. I read the new 911 has 60!

Welders, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, masons, painters, have to have the equivalent of college degrees to successfully rise to the tops of their professions. The variety of materials and building supplies is exploding.

I mean look at plumbing and what's available today - copper, PVC, ABS, HDPE, galvanized, braided stainless over rubber - and all the associated connections you can make - solder, weld, thread, those shark bite things, swage lock, compression... You can spend an hour at Home Depot just to get the right fitting to make a joint!

nynor · 09-14-2009, 11:12 AM

doctors are owned by the system. one of the doctors i work with is employed at something like 4 facilities, all but one in the ER. his hours are enormous. plus, as a doctor, one is ALWAYS on call. screw that.

flatbutt · 09-14-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist

DAmn, you just described my brother's life. He got a degree in economics from UC Davis (pretty good school!) and ended up managing a paint store for 10-15 years. He hated that. Then, through some friends, he got a foot in the door to becoming a plumber! He loves that. Takes as long to learn that craft as it does to get a college degree.

Maybe we should go back to emphasizing trade schools over college.

+1! And then get back to a manufacturing base where all of these trades will be needed.

MotoSook · 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Absolutely!

One of the reasons we're in the hole we're in right now is that we (through over-emphasis of college, because there's so much MONEY in it) have allowed the trades to become irrelevant and looked down upon in this country. As such, what has happened to manufacturing? It's gone. "Outsourced".

One thing that I really liked about my particular college program in architecture was that it was not a "typical" elitist-mentality program. It involved a lot of cutting and building stuff out of wood and metal and concrete and whatever else down in the shop, in addition to the more "intellectual" aspects of the curriculum. It tried to keep us grounded in reality that what we were learning was about BUILDING things and understanding how to make physical stuff out of materials.

If we're ever going to capture back our manufacturing in this country (which I believe is the key to recapturing our industrial might and our economic clout), we need to stop brainwashing our youth into thinking that building, constructing and producing things is somehow "beneath them". Completely wrong. I've known some awfully smart and articulate individuals who were carpenters and sheet metal workers. By contrast, some of the biggest idiots I've ever known were ones working in offices holding pieces of paper saying they were "educated".

I absolutely agree that we should be teaching trades and encouraging people to learn them in this country today, not just telling everyone that they can be a "solutions consultant" if they just sign here and keep writing us $10,000 checks every semester.

I agree with a lot of what you have to say here. The over emphasis of a college education and the fact that education is so readily available has given a lot of folks out there some false hope, whereas they would have been better off pursuing a living in the trades or getting a 4 year start on seniority in some other field.

Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-higher education, but let's face it. College is not for everyone. How many people did you know in college who just were there to be there on their parent's hard earned money, getting some degree that you knew wasn't going to allow a spot in corporate America or in a core sector of the US work force?

Parents are happy to send their kids to college with the hope that their child will come out a corporate super hero, when they haven't educated their child about the reality of the real world. Some parents are not to blame if they don't understand or know.

But let's be real here. Of all the degrees that can be had at a 4 year school, how many would you consider to be in a core discipline? By that I mean that a discipline in which a person can have a career with just their 4 year degree? (e.g. teaching, engineering, etc.)

Yet, so many of my college friends spent 4-5 years wasting their parent's money away in studies of History, Art, Economics, Business Admin, Apparel Mechandising (yes..it's reall..a girlfriend did this and never got far) General Education (four 4 years! Why?), English Literature, etc...you get the idea. Without a post-grad degree, non of these will go very far without luck and perserverance. Yet, so many students graduate thinking this is their ticket to the top floor of some corporation. I don't want to come off mean or condescending, but it's what's happening in America.

Too many people who were sent off to college with poor expectations and false hope...then struggled to earn a C or B average in a mediocre program to only come out to the reality of finding a job in a world full of more qualified people than they are. (remember the girl that is suing her college because she can't get a job?)

A couple of cases:

I have a nephew who I've tried to advise over the years. He's not very smart and didn't exactly graduate with honors for H.S. Although I and his parents would love for him to go to college, I realize it is not for him. He's not motivated to learn from books and school teachers. So why set him up to fail and force him to go to college? I've been trying to get him to consider trade school, but he's more interested in working and getting a nice pay check. But even that is hard to come by these days. His parents are 1st generation immigrants who have been working factory jobs since day 1. So they do the best they can for the kids, but they are at a disadvantage. I have more work to do with him. I'm hopeful he will come around and consider a trade.

My niece, who we took in after her parents went through a bad divorce is very smart. She's focused and tries very hard (straight A senior with a part time job). She's not happy when see doesn't earn top scores for her efforts. She sees her parents struggling and does not want to re-live their lives. As her legal guardian, my wife and I will likely help her fund college, but it's something I think will pay off. She has an interest in finance, but I've been very realistic with her and have tried to do all I can to show her what she's in for and what's available to her in that discipline. I've tried to make her understand that it won't be easy, but the reward for those that rise to the top is plentiful. I think she will suceed if whe works as hard at it as she does now in H.S.

I want all my nieces and nephews to be just like this one, but the truth is I won't get that, so I will do my best to advise all of them so they can find a place in the work force the best suits them so they can have a comfortable living and be able to support their family without the struggles of their parents. I won't sell them false hope....

nynor · 09-14-2009, 11:34 AM

after my four year degree in philosophy (yeah, go ahead and laugh), i did go back to school for a trade. respiratory therapy. one of the better decisions i've made.

the advice i got from my whole family, uncles, grandparents, etc., was that a college degree was going to get me places. what a crock. basically worthless, in my experience, without further education in a profession like law or some such.

trade school will be my advice for my son, unless he turns out to have a passion for something else. i may still sneak a trade into his schedule so he has something to fall back on.

KaptKaos · 09-14-2009, 11:41 AM

Our local public high school dropped all the vocational classes except for auto shop. No more wood shop, metal shop, drafting or anything else. A shame too. Too many school districts think that college is THE goal. It used to be that schools were trying to make productive citizens. Not so much anymore I guess.