Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?

[m21sniper]

LOL, i was thinking the same thing. Too bad our guys didn't have circa 1917 water-cooled browning machineguns.

[emcon5]

Something has been bugging me about this, and I just figured out what it was.

"My weapon was overheating. I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn’t charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down.”

12 magazines in a half hour is only 12 rounds per minute. It doesn't seem like that much to me.

In a 3 gun match a few years ago, I put 147 rounds through an AR carbine in 2 minutes (timed stage, 3 rounds left in my 5th magazine when the timer went off). Yeah it got hot (it melted my nylon web sling), but it still ran fine.

[m21sniper]

I think it's a safe bet that the actual time frame the ammo was fired in was much shorter than the soldier recollected, or was reported.

A well maintained AR will run 500-600rds continuous no problem, but it becomes prone to cook-offs if you leave a round in the chamber after firing all those rounds.

If you reach the point of cookoffs you just lock the bolt back, squirt CLP directly into the chamber until it drips out the other end of the barrel, and douse the exterior of the barrel in canteen water, then you're probably ready to roll again for another couple hundred rounds or so.

M60s and other machine guns are very prone to overheating and can develop "run away gun" syndrome. I saw that on a range at Fort Sill once, it was nuts. The thing just keeps firing until you twist the belt and jam it.

As AR's heat first the handguard becomes to hot to hold, and you grab the magwell. Once the magwell gets too hot you grab the Magazine. Once those are getting uncomfortably hot it's time to cool that bad boy down because you're in serious cook-off territory.

[HardDrive]

LOL. Dude, you funny.

Originally Posted by emcon5

No, this is the answer:



When in doubt, ask John Browning.

[emcon5]

Reading the ar15.com thread linked above, there is some good information in there, before the train goes off the tracks completely around page 4. The leaked "rough draft of the historical analysis of the Battle of Wanat, July 13, 2008" is linked, and can be read here:

* Battle of Wanat Historical Analysis: Rough Draft Release*by*A Battlefield Tourist

This is the report the AP reporter used for his hit piece, which shows he was a little hard and loose with facts. The report mentions the M249 barrel getting "white hot", not the M4s, and at least one of the M4 failures (Ayers, RIP) was because it took a bullet through the lower receiver.

Specialist Bogar fired approximately six hundred rounds at a cyclic rate of fire from his SAW when that weapon became overheated, and eventually jammed the bolt forward. Specialist Stafford noted, “Bogar was still in our hole firing quite a bit. Then Bogar’s SAW jammed. Basically it just got way overheated, because he opened the feed tray cover and I remember him trying to get it open and it just looked like the bolt had welded itself inside the chamber. His barrel was just white hot.”

On edit, interesting article on The reliability of the M4:
http://www.defensereview.com/m4m4a1-carbine-reliability-issues-why-they-occur-and-why-theyre-our-fault/

[m21sniper]

That's a seriously detailed report, thanks for posting it.

It really seems as if this one battle was what i suggested some months back in PARF should be our strategy for A-stan, but on a much smaller scale than i envisioned.

Sure sounds as if it was one hell of a fight, even closing to hand to hand ranges at times. I actually walk away from that report thinking those guys were lucky to have thier M-4s and not M-16A1's.

[emcon5]

Submitted without comment:
TheFiringLine Forums - View Single Post - M4 Failure makes headlines

Originally Posted by a dude on TFL

Bypassing the question of whether or not undermanned units should be trying to carve out miniature Fort Apaches along the Waziristan border...

Some posters seem convinced that M4 combat failure is epedemic due to poor design or, at the very least, somehow contributed to American casualties during two massive and deliberate enemy assaults against small unit outposts.

This thread has been weighing heavily on my mind, as my experience with the same weapon over the last few decades (and several combat tours) does not correlate with that of a number of posters who claim the M4 is liable to fail under stress.

That said, and because I'm currently employed in an organization that issues M4A1s and likes to see them used...

Today I conducted an impromptu and completely unscientific test of my weapon in order to see if I had merely imagined my faith in the little beast.

With this thread fresh in my mind, I broke out 10 brand new GI issue, aluminum body, green follower, Center Industries 5.56 magazines and proceeded to load them with 30 rds each. Not 26, 27, or 28...30 rounds each.

I then proceeded to successfully fire 1140 rds (38 magazines) of M855 62 grain "Greentip" 5.56 through my well used M4A1, on full auto, and in well under 30 minutes.

I checked my watch, noting start time, and began firing the first 10 mags in 3-5 round bursts at a 5 meter target, from a standing position, and executing medium speed combat reloads as each mag ran dry. Shoot to bolt lockback, drop mag, insert new mag, resume fire. 10 times...300 rounds in about 3 minutes.

I then let the rifle cool for about 8 minutes while I reloaded all 10 mags.

Rinse. Repeat. 10 mags in about 3 minutes.

Gun cooled for exactly five minutes while I reloaded all 10 mags at a slightly faster pace.

Rinse. Repeat. 10 mags again in under 3 minutes with slightly longer bursts of 7-9 rds each. By this time, I had lowered the weapon to "hip fire" (just in case...rather have a cookoff or malfunction away from my face).

Last iteration. Let carbine cool while I loaded 8 mags in under 5 minutes. I didn't have a new case of ammo open and I didn't want to slow down the proceedings. Fired all 8 from the hip as fast as I could reload (in about 1 minute and 30 seconds, full auto, trigger depressed until magazines were empty. No attempt at burst fire.

38 x 30-rd magazines fired without a stutter,...in under 28.5 minutes, without a jam, misfeed, doublefeed, cookoff or failure to completely chamber, extract or eject. It hummed like a sewing machine, put all rds on target (except for a few flyers from the hip), and never changed a beat with regards to getting sluggish from fouling.

This performance was delivered by a stock military issue M4A1 that has seen 10s of thousands of rounds down the barrel, probably 5 combat deployments, several months worth of PMT (Pre Mission Training for combat deployments), several shooting schools, and many months of team ranges at home and abroad.

My carbine was relatively clean and I oiled it prior to firing as I stood on the range. I shotgunned the upper receiver, dripped some CLP on the trigger group, liberally coated the charging handle, chamber, and bolt carrier group (without disassembling the bolt from the bolt carrier) and slapped it back together. Aimpoint M68 "on", nomex clad hands on pistol grip and vertical foregrip, KAC quad-rail run exposed with no rail covers (don't need 'em or like 'em).

1140 rounds. Thats three times as much ammo as a normal infantryman would be likely to ever carry on his body, thirty-eight magazines, more than five basic combat loads...all on full auto...in well under thirty minutes. Nemo Problemo.

The upper receiver was still a bit too hot to touch (rear rail, barrel, and ejection port area) without gloves after 10 minutes, but the lower receiver was good to go barehanded.

I took an assumed risk (induced weapon failure) and wore adequate protective gear, but (as it turned out), nothing was necessary. Didn't even need gloves as the vertical foregrip stayed cool.

Someone will no doubt question my ability to conduct such a "test" on a military range. I'll simply say that I have enough rank that very few folks question what I do or why I want to do it.

It's not the first time I've put a lot of rounds down an M4A1, but it's the highest round count I've shot recently in such a short period of time.

Of course, this just an anecdotal account of my experience with just one weapon, but my faith in the M4A1 remains affirmed.

BTW: My barrel didn't get white hot...just black with wisps of smoke coming off of it.

YMMV.
__________________
Figure The Odds...

[Tobra]

So if I read that correctly, if you maintain this weapon, it is practically foolproof; we have failed to adequately define PMS/maintenance hence failures

Originally Posted by m21sniper

The USMC wants to replace some M-16A4's with some new fangled squad automatic rifle that will automatically switch to open bolt operation when it heats up, so that they can increase the volume of fire of their units.

I like this idea. Seems like for a squad gun, you could do the do the cooling fins like on an air cooled car, water is too heavy to tote, though I bet it you could devise a method to take advantage of it as a medium for cooling for a fixed position.

How long could you shoot the bad to the bone MG '42 the Germans had before it would overheat? I know they had a pretty impressive rate of fire, but you burn that much energy you create a lot of heat, gotta go somewhere.

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by Tobra

How long could you shoot the bad to the bone MG '42 the Germans had before it would overheat? I know they had a pretty impressive rate of fire, but you burn that much energy you create a lot of heat, gotta go somewhere.

MG42 has quick change barrels. Throw a lever, pull the barrel out and pop in a cool one.

Fast forward to about 1:55, you can see how it comes out:
YouTube - German Machine Gun MG42

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I like this idea. Seems like for a squad gun, you could do the do the cooling fins like on an air cooled car, water is too heavy to tote, though I bet it you could devise a method to take advantage of it as a medium for cooling for a fixed position.

FNH IAR?

IAR

[m21sniper]

The problem with open bolt weapons as battlefield systems is that in harsh environments they are prone to eat a lot of dust, dirt and debris.

The US military could certainly put full length fluted and thermally coated barrels on pretty much everything, but it would cost a lot of money.

I'm personally not really worried about it, even if i fire off every round from every magazine i own including my Beta C double drum it's still only 600rds.

[m21sniper]

More on M855 armor penetration capabilities:

"Q. Isn't 7.62 NATO much better for long range penetration than 5.56 anyhow? Why would I want to use 5.56 when I could send 7.62 downrange instead?

Well, yes and no. For some penetration mediums like mild steel, M855 is actually superior. Consider a recent research report:

The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters, while the 7.62mm ball can only penetrate it to 620 meters. The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters, while the 7.62mm ball cannot penetrate it beyond 800 meters.

The current production 7.62×51mm NATO ball cartridge has remained unchanged since its adoption by NATO in 1953. As typified by the U. S. M80 ball and the Belgian M77 ball, this cartridge propels a 147-grain cupronickel-jacketed lead bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps (848 mps). Total cartridge length and weight are 2.80 inches and 386 grains, respectively. Utilizing a standard 22-inch barrel with a rifling twist of one turn in twelve inches (M14 rifle), the maximum effective range of the 7.62×51mm ball cartridge is listed as 620 meters (682 yards). The U. S. M80 and the Belgian M77 ball projectiles can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45 mm (.14 inch) thick steel plate up to a range of 620 meters and can penetrate one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 800 meters (880 yards). In barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 147 grain ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks.

The new SS-109 cartridge propels a heavier 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The improved projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that ensures penetration at longer ranges.

The new projectile can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45mm steel plate up to a range of 640 meters (704 yards) and one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 1,300 meters (1430 yards). In tests of barrier and fortification penetration however, the steel penetrator of the SS-109 could not pierce any of the test building blocks.

The primary advantages of the intermediate power 5.56×45mm NATO cartridge are summarized as follows: (1) the penetration and power of the SS-109 version are superior to the 7.62mm NATO and more than adequate for the 300-meter average combat range documented in actual battle (ORO studies): (2) the lower recoil generated by the 5.56mm cartridge allows more control during full automatic fire and therefore provides greater firepower to the individual soldier; (3) the lesser weight of the 5.56mm ammunition allows the individual soldier to carry more ammunition and other equipment; (4) the smaller size of the 5.56mm ammunition allows the use of smaller, lighter and more compact rifles and squad automatic weapons and; (5) the lethality of the 5.56mm projectile is greater than the 7.62mm projectile at normal combat ranges, due to the tendency of the lighter projectile to tumble or shatter on impact. 5.56-mm NATO ammunition weighs only 47% as much as 7.62 mm NATO ammunition.

In summary, the 5.56mm NATO provides greater firepower and effectiveness than the larger and heavier 7.62mm NATO."

The AR15.com Ammo Oracle

Here's a link to the pelican thread on 5.56mm ammo selection:
What is your choice in 5.56mm ammo

I also found this on the ammo oracle link:

"M193 and M855 at anything greater than 2200 fps will generally defeat all body armor up to and including Type IIIA. How much damage those rounds will do AFTER penetration is guesswork. In shorter barrels (14.5" and below) that damage is likely to be limited and wound profiles in such instances will resemble .22LR hits. With higher velocities it's still hard to imagine explosive fragmentation at anything but point blank range but M193 and M855 will certainly defeat all soft armor."

It seems to me the newer heavier 77gr US Military bullets would still retain sufficient velocity to fragment (2100fps floor) even after penetrating class IIIA armor.

[m21sniper]

I just fired 204rds of full power .223/5.56mm through my AR Carbine in about 3 to 4 minutes yesterday, trying to see if i could get the rifle to malfunction.

The first part of the test was a standard silhouette target at 25 yards. The second target was a standard silhouette at 7yards.

I started with with aimed fire, shooting 13rds of heavywieght max. pressure Double Tap 77gr JHPBT's to get the barrel warm and fine tune my zero. I then reloaded the weapon and went into "mad minute mode", firing a 100rd beta C double drum mag of American Eagle 50gr Federal JHP as fast as i could while keeping the front sight post centered on the target.

I quickly followed that up with 3x 30rd mags of the same Federal JHP ammo rapid fired and reloaded as fast as possible, again while recentering my front sight on the target between shots- one mag right after the other.

No failures of any kind occured.

The standard US combat loadout of 5.56mm is 210rds of M855 in 7x30rd mags. My test yesterday closely approxomated what would happen if a US soldier had to rapid fire his entire combat loadout in a matter of just a few minutes.

After firing the 204rds the weapon was pouring smoke from the action, muzzle and free floated handguard tube end, but the Hogue overmolded rubber portion of the handguard was only slightly warm.

Temperature inside the range was about 60 degrees F.

I should have video of the Beta-C mag portion of the test in a day or two, once my buddy uploads it.