Marriage: when is enough enough?
 

Maybe I'm just having a melancholy day, but my marriage is starting to take a toll on my day to day well-being. The constant arguing, the jabs, lack of intimacy, lack of common interests, poor communication, etc.

We have discussed separation, have tried counseling but probably need more.

The thought of not being in the same house as my kids breaks my heart. Simple things like tucking them in at night, helping with homework, etc. Especially hard during the holidays.

I've been divorced once before, but that was a hail mary from the beginning, with little to no chance of success.

My current wife and I have been together for 16 years. Its gotten to the point where we are both shutting down emotionally and things are becoming toxic.

The time and effort it would take to make things better would be tremendous.

Or do we cut our losses and go our own ways?

Thanks for letting me vent. I've been reading Lubemasters thread, but didnt want to hijack.

Never been married here but I did just break up with a girl I had been with for 2yrs... It was kinda the same way... Felt like it had gotten toxic and we were both shutting down... In retrospect I wish I had tried to save it...


Try to save it. You will regret not....

The real question is do you both want to move forward together as happy couple in a healthy relationship or not. You guys didn't get where you are overight so don't expect to "fix" the relationship overnight.

Sometimes too much water has passed under the bridge where one or both of you have changed so much that you don't have anything in common or remember why it is that you married in the first place.

Only you two know the real answer to that........

How old are your kids?

Without kids, it's easy, just get out.

Divorce is very destructive to kids, though. And they didn't ask to be put into the situation, that was all your and your wife's doing. They are innocent victims.

So you owe it to them, even at the expense of your happiness, to do everything possible to keep it together and working in a reasonably functional way, for their benefit.

Many of you folowed and commented on my thread when wife and I were having problems this summer that resulted in a 2 month separation. Thus far the physical separation helped us rekindle our relationship but I think it was more of a decison by both of us to really examine what was important to us individually and as a couple. In our case we had some common goals, desires and attitudes but it took some real candor aND emotional risks to undo some patterns both of us had fallen into.

We have only been married 3 1/2 years but together for 6 1/2. We have no children together,,,3 teenage children, I have no kids. As many are aware the stepkids (particularly the twin 18 y.o. dtrs) were a primary area whgere we got off in the ditch. I had to back off my role as I saw it with the kids and wife had to concede that my efforts at stepparenting were well intentioned if not in line with what she felt my role shuld or should not be. Moot point now as all kids are out of the house and off to college. Having kids tohether makes your situation a bit more complicated than mine.

That being said, its come to jesus time for the two of you. In a non-hostile non-adversarial way the two of you must sit down and discuss where the relationship has gone off in the ditch. Establish expectations, boundaries, roles, goals, desires etc both individually amnd as a couple. Get away from blaming one or the other and be ready to accept personal responsibility for what has gone wrong, Keep in mind at this point its about the failure of the RELATIONSIP not your failures individually or as a spouse. Its about honest communication. If either of you are unwilling or unable to do this, it cannot be salvaged.

Its a tough thing to do. It requires that both of you are honest and vulnerable to opening up as to exactly what's going on in the relationship. Only at that point can you salvage the relationship or make a decision to go your separate ways.

Good luck.

Having been married/divorced twice and have had many relationships (some long term, some not) fail. I feel I should have a little something to share on this topic.
Let me share what I know about women and how to make a relationship work.

1. Man hole covers are round so they will install without a specific orientation..
2. Man hole covers are extremely heavy because they have to withstand the weight of traffic.
3. Man hole covers when tipped on edge will not fall into the hole.
4. Man hole covers were first used in New York City.

wrong guy to ask...

Viper, I've been divorced since 1988. My two children were badly hurt by the process even though we tried very hard to avoid that. Try to save the family and realize it is highly likely that in a divorce the kids will be hurt. Don't be fooled by that " kids are resilient crap". It hurts and it hurts for a long time.

Man the day-to-day work in a relationship is the hardest...........

I'm pretty sure I've seen children get damaged by a couple staying together that shouldn't have as well, so I'd say that's a double-edged sword.

I split up with my ex in 2004 and before we did we went through a lot of counseling. Then I reluctantly agreed to do something else, a Marriage Builders seminar. I thought it was 100x better than the slow-boat counseling. It didn't save my marriage, but for a while it sure helped. Worth a look-see. I could see it saving a lot of relationships, and I could see doing it before things get too far down the wrong path. Good luck!

Thanks Kevin, I'm starting to feel like i've lost my manhole cover...but I have been to NY once ;)

I appreciate the various perspectives on the subject.

Try taking a trip, just the two of you, for a week in a car or a boat (a small vehicle). After that time the answer will be obvious. Either you will rekindle the flame, or you will know that you dislike each other so much it won't continue.

Bro you are not alone, MANY of us are in the SAME boat, I have two kids too! I always tell her that I don't have a wife anymore is like having a cousin:rolleyes: the way I have figured it out, I own it to my kids to be there for them after 16 years what is another 10 or so. Good luck and if you fix it please let me know how.

I get along better with my ex now that when we were married. And I see my son all the time. But that took a lot of work and effort as well as sacrifices by both of us. In the end I'm not sure that it wouldn't have been less work to stay together, but the reality is that sometimes there is no perfect solution. Staying together and working it out is likely the easiest. But I don't buy the "staying together for the kids" thing. If it really is toxic the kids will get hurt by that as much or more than by divorce. If both of you can put the kids first, you can likely make either marriage or divorce work.

I think I have realized that over time people, including myself, do change and I believe my wife and i may have inherent compatibility issues and most basic levels. Kinda the round hole, square peg thing. Hmmm, interesting metaphore since labido is an issue ;)

I am from a broken home, the parents got divorced when I was 5. All I really remember is that the fighting was over. It was a bitter house to live in. My wife is also from a broken home, where it seems that the divorce was handled very well. All parties are civil and get along in social situations to this day.
I have been married for almost 24 years, we dated for 2. I am in the same boat as you. I have changed, she has changed, and we have grown apart. It is to the point where when we care enough to even argue, we don't have the energy to yell, we just disagree.
I love my wife, but I am not in love with her any more. I asked myself a question several times and I always have the same answer. Would I marry the person she is now? I always come up with no.
I left a few years ago, but I came back because I could not stand to be without my kids, looking back, I should have stayed gone. My kids are all grown now, and they are surprised that we are still together. We went to counseling and it did help, just now we know the mistakes we have made and still make.
My ramblings are kind of just my way to say, no one can answer that question for you. You have to answer that for yourself. Just remember, you have to make that face in the mirror happy.
I wish you luck no matter which way you go.

+1 on what Dueller wrote.

Marriage counseling helps. It did with my relationship - helped me realize that often I had
the wrong (selfish) priorities.

Marriage encounter / enrichment weekends also helped my relationship with my wife - they help you get grounded in why you are married and how to take the marriage to the next level.

I've been married 16 years now, and am still falling in love with Kim, my wonderful wife.

If you love your wife, make it work. There is no easy fix - and tough times may be ahead for you and your wife -- but if you endure through it, coming out on the other side will make the relationship stronger. Don't give up, and hang tough.

As for compatability issues - sometimes you have to agree to disagree. There are plenty of differences between Kim and I - and often it is those differences that make our relationship WORK, not fail, believe it or not.

-Z-man.

Amen, brother!!!!

I got home from work about 45 minutes ago(drove the 911 so I was ina good mood)and what was the first thing I did?










Complained that my wife had moved the living room furniture around.

I'm an idiot.


Gotta go make things right with Amanda. Be right back.

After a bad breakup in college, I learned the lesson that there were some character traits/habits/beliefs that I could tolerate in a woman and some that would be toxic to a long-term relationship. I made a list of them. It really helped me stear clear of relationships with women (no matter how hot) that would eventually end in disaster.

This list is different for everyone, and I was fortunate at the time that I made it that I wasn't in a relationship--so I didn't try to fit it to any person. (Most of the time when people make a list like this, they are either trying to justifying a decision to date or not date a given person.)

What I'm getting at is are there real, underlying things about the other person that make the relationship fundamentally unsustainable, or is it the accumulation of relatively minor stuff that makes things uncomfortable even when nothing is really wrong?

Life is very short...better to live it happy...make a move...I was there before....!

Three-way.

I've only been married for two years, but I find the day to day stuff no work at all. Hardest thing for me is being on the road, away from my wife. But then when we do have a fight, it tends to be about serious issues like money or buying a house and it doesn't usually get resolved. We just get tired of being angry at each other and kick it on down the road. Recently I found out she's spending $1000 per month on clothes and shoes she never wears and just stockpiles in closets. She has the money and never carries a cc balance. But she's crazy defensive when I bring this up to her. Still trying to figure out where this one is leading.

Move on and be happy. I wish my parents would have divorced when I was a kid, they didn't of course and I'm badly screwed up because of it. Relationships are not worth it in my opinion, no matter how great it is at the beginning it always goes downhill from there (especially the sex part part). Here's the best definition of marriage I've ever heard:

"Marriage is 2 people sharing problems they wouldn't have if they were single"

Good luck to you no matter what you decide!

When one files papers....kinda gets the ball rolling.

To add to legion's comments, in the course of of individual counseling I discovered what were my real priorities in a relationship and did an honest inventory of what my wife was capable of bringing to the relationship table, Fortunately for our relationship she had a lot to offer that was consistent with my needs. And vice versa.

I also discovered that most of what we were fighting about was not what the real issues were...we were avoiding the real issues. Once we were able to be candid about the real issues we discovered that we were able to resolve them to our mutual satisfaction rather than delving into a tit for tat scorekeeping style of fighting.

Learning to communcate on an honest level was a difficult task for both of us. To be able to express your feelings or listen to another person express theirs without being personally offended and lapsing into a battle of insults or hostility is such a relief. An example of our patern would be along the lines of me saying something about a child's actions/behavior that I disagreed with would be interpretted by wife as me saying her kid's were horrible people or she was a bad mother. Ostensibly I would just be expressing my concern as a caring stepparent but in reality I could be pretty hostile and mean-spirited. And we would be off to the races with anger and hurt feelings and a screaming match.

Money is power in most relationships...an imbalance of power is deadly to survival of a relationship.

This is simply a bad oversimplification. At the expense of your happiness? Bull. Kids are just as bad off if not worse off in a home where parents don't get along, fight, don't care for each other, etc.

I stayed in my relationship way too long to the point where I was angry, bitter, lonely, etc. My kids have seen a huge difference in me becoming the much happier person I am today after we split up and my ex and I get along better than ever. If her life wasn't a f'up mess the kids would be happy as clams.

Yes, it's hard on them but in some situations it's for the best. I think it's harder for older kids who are very used to a routine, two parent household, all of that. My Fiance's son was 4 when they split and he doesn't know anything but his folks living apart and parenting him that way.

Every situation is different but the stereotypical response to stay together for the kids is a load of crap.

I tried this one time and it really didn't work. In fact when I finally let her out of the trunk she was madder than when I locked her in there.

My history: Divorced after 13 years. 2 kids – 6 & 9 at the time. Our marriage was the Dead Zone but we were very good parents. The marriage was not revivable. I made feeble attempts but nil response from her. It was years too late. I was on the road a lot & that was my alter ego. I never strayed but I enjoyed myself. The hifi business then was . . . well . . . fun. Anyway . . . she announced that we were no longer married & started socializing. I went ballistic. A separation of 6 months (we alternated weeks in the house with the kids) was beyond living hell for me & hell with a dose of partying for her. I was standing in the Las Vegas airport heading home after a convention when I decided to end it.

My kids survived it all. Small scars - yes. I bear the scars of parents that didn’t divorce & probably should have. My kids were never used or drawn into the fray. But they felt it & saw it. They were shuffled back & forth while younger but the early teen years slowed down their visits to me. Kids can only have one home. I missed a lot of growing up. That is what hurts me the most. Interestingly, they both married fairly young. We shall see.

Along the way I gained a new wife & stepson who was very scarred by divorce. It happened when he was 3 years old. No earth-shattering or nasty event but it traumatized him which led to serious issues later in his development. He was kicked out of school at 8. He trashed the principal’s office & bit a gay teacher. A lockdown school for a year plus psychologists & a seriously whacked (but very good) psychiatrist gave him the defense mechanisms he needed. His adolescence was hell for us. He was kicked out of another school. A long, long story. He came back to reality gradually & normalized by around 19.

So yes, divorce can scar kids. In the long run, we all came out of it but it was not easy & it was never foreseeable. Our success was based on our ability to cope & to compromise with all of the twists.

So think long and hard about this decision. But I don’t believe a dead marriage is a healthy place to be for anybody.

Ian

Maybe you put the duct tape on the wrong places...

As Dr. Phil would say: "It's better to be from a broken home than live in a broken home".

When my ex and I got divorced I was petrified it would screw up our kids. The court-mandated class we took told us about a recent study that has shown children from low-conflict divorces turn out as healthy as kids from low conflict marriages. Children from high conflict marriages and high conflict divorces turn out poorly.

In other words, its the fighting, not whether you are divorced or married that makes the most difference to your kids.

For us divorce was the right call. We are both much, much happier now. We get along great and are successful co-parents. Happy parents = happy kids.

We've got a long way to go, but the notion that divorce has to hurt your kids is BS.

Brad,
you have a pm

Thats really the ****s, I wish all of you the best.

I guess that may be possible, the b!tch had chewed nearly all the way thru the spare tire before I let her out.

I'm probably not going to be a very popular guy in this thread after I say this but here goes.

I think that once you bring kids into the world, you sign on to stay until those kids are out of the house.

Somehow our society has become selfish in how we look at the world. Everything is about how happy you are or how fulfilled you are in your relationship (I do not mean you to refer to the OP, just using you to refer to the generic you).

Dating relationships are about you, marriages are about us.

Now then, if there is true abuse going on, that is obviously a different situation. Also, both partners have to be on the same page. It won't work if you want to stay and she doesn't.

Myself, when I got married I knew I was signing on for life. No escape hatch, no ejector seats. That was 11 years ago.

Flame away.

My parents marriage was effectively over by the time I was 12. But they 'kept it together for the kids'. What a freaking nightmare. Absolute nightmare. Our homelife was a trainwreck. My parents were both so unhappy with their homelife that they escaped into their own lives outside.

If you and the wife can find a space to make a marriage again, then great. I hope you guys work this out. But please, please, don't stay in some toxic marriage, because all you are doing its raising your children in a toxic soup. I grew up with it, and I still see how it effects me to this day.

Let's see what you say in 5-6 years.....

What will 5-6 years do?

Is there a born on date for marriages? Do they turn skunky at 15 years or something?

Brad, am sorry to hear of your difficulity, 16 years together is a pretty serious investment of time. I'd suggest going to a third party for 'marriage counseling'. See what their take is on your situation. It didn't fix my first but it it helped with my perspective on what was going on.
Some locales still debate legalized gambling, I can't think of a bigger one than saying 'I do'. I hope all comes out ok for you.
Jim

If that is working for you then more power to you. I know in my case I could have stayed married. Truth be told very few *have* to get divorced. But I don't see the world quite as black and white as you do. The fact is that there is an element of "self" that must be maintained. We do not magically transform into "us" when married, or when we have kids. Yes, children are dependent on the parents. But the parent does not cease being an individual. For some, subsuming themselves to the kid and/or marriage "works" but I've seen people who did that and frankly were pretty messed up. Mostly because they had lost themselves. At some point the kids move away and relationships change and all along you are stuck with...yourself.

I think it is a balance between self fulfillment and duty to the family. For some, that duty is better served from a bit of a distance. People have different needs and goals in life. I don't think there is one "right" answer for anyone. I've known people who have lived together and others who have married and others who have divorced. I've seen all of those combinations with and without kids. I've seen happy divorced families and miserable married families. And vice versa. There is no single solution. And I think that the historical pressure that society has brought to bear on certain "wrong" choices is partly to blame for the problems.

I suppose if we kept the women out of the workplace and the man is the king of the household, and maintain that for the kids no matter what, then everything would be just like it was. The problem is that "how it was" perhaps wasn't as good as people remember. Depends on your situation...