Tell me about this antique spoon

Tishabet · 11-23-2009, 04:16 PM

Hi guys,

I was wondering if you spoon experts could tell me anything about this one. It's been in the family for some time and comes with a shoebox-sized kit of various tools including a bullet mold, files, some sort of attachment that fits on the end of the barrel, a little bipod kind of thing, etc. My grandfather says it was used once upon a time for bench shooting but that's about all he knows... nobody currently living has fired this one.

On the side with the hammer it reads:
NELSON DE'LANY
WARRANTED
CAST-STEEL

The left hand side of the barrel is stamped:
NELSON DE'LANY READING. P-A.
WARRANTED CAST-STEEL

I don't know anything about cap rifles, but would be interested in trying this one out some day. Would a gunsmith be able to tell me if it is safe to fire?

Here are the pics:

Leland Pate · 11-23-2009, 04:23 PM

After close examination, I think it's beautiful!

pwd72s · 11-23-2009, 10:55 PM

Obviously designed to produce tight groups...love the set trigger.

tabs · 12:10 PM

U ever wana sell it you let me know?

That said the piece that fits on the end of the rifle would need to be included for me to buy the thing. That is how important that piece is...DO NOT LOSE IT, it can not be replaced, as it was made when the barrel was made. You can not refabricate the piece either, it does not work.

Anyway that rifle is a TACK DRIVER and is capable of shooting 11 shots in the size of a 1/2 USD , each cutting each other in the shape of a W at 220 yds...

The rifle waqs made circa 1850 to 1880. Most likely 1860 to 1870 give or take

Does the scope have optics or is it just a sight tube.

SAFE TO FIRE...does a bear shyte in the woods...of course it is safe to fire. Remember this is BLACK POWDER ONLY>>check the bore to see nothin is down there...first though..

9dreizig · 11-24-2009, 12:16 PM

I think Tabs thinks it's worth more than he's saying :-)

Tishabet · 11-24-2009, 12:27 PM

Hey guys,

thanks for the feedback/compliments. It's definitely not for sale... has been in the family for quite a while and won't be leaving under my watch.

I do have the attachment for the barrel as well as probably a dozen other tools and such which are stored in a handmade box that appears to be purpose-built (e.g. it has a special cutout to store some of the rods diagonally). Knowing nothing about black powder in general, I will try to get pics and post them here so you guys can tell me what this stuff is for. For example, the piece that mates to the end of the barrel... I've identified it, but what the heck is it?

tabs · 11-24-2009, 12:35 PM

It is called a FALSE MUZZLE and is used during the loading process so as not to damage the rifling. There also should be a piece that fits over the False Muzzle with a short rod that goes down into the barrel (usually made of Brass) that is called the Short Starter and is used to start the bullet down the barrel.

Take a look at the Bullet Mold...it is either going to be a ROUND BALL mold or it is going to have what is known as a Sugar Loaf Bullet/Picket. Bullets from that mold are what ya want to shoot with that thing.

Also DO NOT LOSE THE BOX OF TOOLS>>>those add significant value to the rifle.

Also pleas give more info on the scope...is there a mfg's name on it? Is it just a sight tube or have optics?

tabs · 11-24-2009, 12:44 PM

Also DO NOT SHINE THE BRASS, NOR try and clean the metal up...if you do you destroy value...
It is in nice ORIGINAL CONDTION, and that is what Boyz like me want. Just keep it oiled and call it good. The bore on this should be very shiney, as these were used on Sunday for target shooting they were taken care of. If not well you do affect value.

If you do decide to shoot it..and I would....be sure to clean the Black Powder at once..no sleeping on it till tommorow...using hot soapy water, dry throughly and oil. You can take the barrel out of the stock to do the cleaning..Also do not forget to take the Nipple out...Black Powder IS VERY CORROSIVE..and if left will destroy the barrel you have shyte left for value.

tabs · 01:14 PM

Also show a picture of the RIGHT SIDE of the stock, does it have a Patch Box?

This is not a HIGH GRADE rifle with profuse engraving nor checkering nor fancy wood...It is what one might call a Standard Grade Target Rifle..what makes it interesting for me is the Scope..and then the box of tools...It is in near excellent condition from what I can see. The varnish on the stock appears to be original.

I like this rifle alot because this is the thing I like to collect...or have moved to in my collecting habit...I have had just about everything else at one time or another...How many Lugers do ya need? These all were built ONE OFF, and are an American Art Form..

As far as value...they don't match the Kentucky/Pennsylvania FLINTLOCK Rifle Status...but because it is a target is worth in the 2500 to 4500 range..It might go a bit higher on a good day...Without the scope, box of tools and that False Muzzle...maybe 1200 at best...So U get the idea of just how valuable that little False Muzzle is? Most collectors will pass that rifle by without it...

71T Targa · 11-24-2009, 12:59 PM

I'm curious; how many 0's in the price of something like this? (not counting the ones after the .)

71T Targa · 11-24-2009, 01:01 PM

Answered at the same time I asked. It doesn't get much faster than that.

scottmandue · 11-24-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leland Pate

After close examination, I think it's beautiful!

I'll second that motion!

mike55 · 11-24-2009, 02:26 PM

Nice. Total gun neophyte here...... what's the second trigger for?

MRM · 11-24-2009, 02:42 PM

It's a hair trigger used for precision shooting. The first trigger has normal trigger pull so you squeeeze it slowly to keep the gun aimed on target. That's normal shooting. When you're shooting on a bench or otherwise braced and you'e shooting for tight precision, you use the hair trigger. The pressure to trip the hair trigger is probably a few ounces, as compared to a few pounds for the regular trigger, so the lightest touch fires the gun. You have less movement than squeezing the regular trigger so it's easier to keep the gun still as you fire and you get better precision in hitting your target with a tight group.

Mo_Gearhead · 11-24-2009, 03:30 PM

MRM's description?
_________________

Well ...there's a LOT I have never seen, but I have never seen a double set trigger that allowed BOTH triggers to allow the hammer to drop on a single shot weapon?

My experience is; the 'set' trigger moves the sear the first small distance and yes, it does feel like a normal 'pull '...then it STOPS - as the second sear notch engages the second ( hair) trigger.

At that point, the slightest pressure on the 'second' trigger fires the gun.

Zef · Zef's Garage

I think that it should not lay on the floor...!

Jeff Higgins · 11-24-2009, 04:16 PM

That's what used to be known as a "chunk gun". "Chunk" shooting was the predecessor to modern bench rest competition. Competitors lay prone behind a rest, often simply a log on the ground, and rest the muzzle on the log or "chunk". As the game evolved, many competitors fashioned their own rests that they brought with them to the matches. That's what the little bipod doohickey is. Chunk guns got pretty big in some classes, like up to 50-60 pounds or more, so yours is on the light end of the spectrum.

Early chunk guns all fired patched round ball, so there was little need for a false muzzle. The purpose of the false muzzle is not to protect the rifling, but to ensure an elongated "picket" bullet starts straight. The false muzzle is simply the end of the original barrel. In other words, the false muzzle and barrel start out as one piece and then get cut apart, with the four (sometimes only two) alignment pin holes drilled deep enough to go through what would become that false muzzle and into what would become the end of the barrel. Once the false muzzle portion was cut off, its rifling was reamed out and a slight taper added at the end through which the bullet was started.

Yours looks like about a 40-45 caliber, which was the common range of bore sizes once the bullet took over from the ball. With a matching mold, you have all the tools you need to shoot it. When casting bullets, best results are obtained with pure, soft lead. The bullet has to be soft enough in a muzzle loader to "bump up" as the old timers called it; it must obturate to fill the bore properly. If it was big enough to do that before you loaded it, you would never be able to ram it down the bore. They start out a wee bit undersized, and rely upon a good hard whack from the igniting powder to foreshorten them and bump them up.

Hopefully a powder measure was included; one that someone has already tailored to the rifle. If not, start out with lighter charges of black powder, like around 40-50 grains or so. Use what is known as "FFG" granulation, or "double F" as we call it. Black powder, unlike smokeless, is all the same chemically. Burning rate is controlled by grain size, and grain size is indicated by the number of "F's" - Fg, FFg, FFFg, FFFFg are the common grain sizes. The more "F's" the finer the powder and the faster burning. Fg is typically used in shotguns, FFg in 40 caliber and larger rifles, FFFg in small bore rifles, pistols, and revolvers, and FFFFg as a priming powder in the pan of flint locks.

Make sure the powder is well compressed when seating the bullet - really lean on the ramrod once you feel the bullet touch the powder. Any airspace between the two can damage the rifle. Lube the bullet (it should have grease grooves) with a good commercially available black powder specific lubricant. Thompson-Center Wonder Lube is a good one. Don't use a wad or anything between bullet and powder; just the plain lubed bullet.

Igniition is by means of a percussion cap that fits over the nipple. Backtracking just a bit, when you first prepare the gun to fire, you will wnat to swab all oil out of the bore and from under the nipple. You will never get the breech area completely dry that way, and if you don't, the gun will hang fire or miss fire. Snap a few caps on it before loading it to dry that area out completely. Caps come in a couple of sizes, #10 and #11 (plus a much larger military "musket" cap, which your rifle doesn't use). If you can, drop by the gun shop with the rifle in hand (or just the nipple) and see what fits.

These things need to be "cleaned" after every shot. I use one damp patch (with water) followed by one dry one. It's more just a cursory swabbing, to get the heavy powder fouling out. Neglect to do that, and the next bullet may get stuck in the bore when you are trying to load it. Don't ever try to shoot one out - if it's not fully seated on the powder charge, it will act like a bore obstruction and will damage the rifle. Perhaps catastrophically...

I clean up with a tight cleaning patch on a jag, submerging the breech end of the barrel in a pale of very hot water. The barrel separates from the stock by driving the wedge pin out, then either hinging it up out of a hooked style recess in the front of the tang, or by taking the two tang screws out if the barrel and tang are integral. Pump the cleaning rod up and down like a bicycle pump handle, drawing water in the barrel though the submerged nipple. Do that a few times, them remove the nipple and do it again. Dry the barrel and nipple, run a patch down bore with some Hoppe's #9 on it, wipe some all over the nipple and outside of the barrel, and you're done.

Anyway, there should be no reason not to shoot it. I would, however, have it examined by someone in the know. Sometimes the breech plug, which is threaded into the back of the barrel, can be a place rust will start. It starts in those threads, sometimes compromising their strength. A gunsmith should be able to unscrew it and look. If it checks out, by all means, shoot it. It's a lot of fun.

targa911S · 11-24-2009, 06:57 PM

It would look great as a sawn off!

:-)

MRM · 11-24-2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo_Gearhead

MRM's description?
_________________

Well ...there's a LOT I have never seen, but I have never seen a double set trigger that allowed BOTH triggers to allow the hammer to drop on a single shot weapon?

My experience is; the 'set' trigger moves the sear the first small distance and yes, it does feel like a normal 'pull '...then it STOPS - as the second sear notch engages the second ( hair) trigger.

At that point, the slightest pressure on the 'second' trigger fires the gun.

Of course you are correct. That is a better description of a hair trigger.

pwd72s · 11-24-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo_Gearhead

MRM's description?
_________________

Well ...there's a LOT I have never seen, but I have never seen a double set trigger that allowed BOTH triggers to allow the hammer to drop on a single shot weapon?

My experience is; the 'set' trigger moves the sear the first small distance and yes, it does feel like a normal 'pull '...then it STOPS - as the second sear notch engages the second ( hair) trigger.

At that point, the slightest pressure on the 'second' trigger fires the gun.

My thought too...that's why I called it a "set" trigger in my earlier post.